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Taking an HW50 through "Boot Camp"  Part 1                 ©

2/13/2024

8 Comments

 

Part 1.- The Power Plant

Disclaimer.-
The conversion done here was carried out by a professional gunsmith. No warranties implied, or otherwise are intended in this article. The turning/milling operations carried are sensitive, not devoid of dangers and of a high precision nature.
Do NOT attempt this conversion if you are not completely qualified to do so.
This conversion has NOT been sanctioned by
Weihrauch & Weihrauch GmbH & Co. KG.
This conversion proved safe IN THE GUN that it was performed. We cannot guarantee that all other guns will receive the conversion in the same way.
Please do not ask for measurements or dimensions,
Connecticut Custom Airguns cannot provide these data.
All designs and parts' shapes and dimensions are proprietary to
CCA and Weihrauch & Weihrauch GmbH & Co. KG and their Weihrauch brand as applicable.

Benchmark

When tackling an unknown rifle, I like to do a "Benchmark" test to see where we started and evaluate where we ended.
In THIS case, it was impossible, and the story is peculiar.

A friend asked me to make two sets of springs for his HW50 using Titan springs as basic material.
We consulted with the Titan manufacturer (John Knibbs & Co in the UK) and the suggestion was to use a Titan #7, so we ordered the springs and when they arrived, a couple of guides were made and shipped.

Time passed and then I was alerted to the fact that the springs would not allow the rifle's piston's stem to engage fully with the trigger, thereby the gun could not be cocked.

So I got the rifle and the springs with the instructions to add a CF sleeve to the barrel and to get the rifle up to WFTF level (that means sub-12 ft-lbs, and accurate to 55 yards).
And  . . .  the process began.

The first thing was to establish the real "capacity" spring-wise of the little rifle.

A search in the Internet came out with three important things:
1)
 most serious uses/best substantiated & published results of these guns are from the UK, under the 12 ft-lbs/0.22" cal. guise. Energies in the mid 10's and great 3 shot groups are reported in the E-press. Of special note are the "Sandwell Sports" special runs that seem to embody what would be an ideal "UK Garden rifle", though some of those specially commissioned guns are very capable at ranges in excess of 55 yards in the right hands.
2) the CURRENT HW50 in the US is the HW99 in the rest of the World.
3) the numbers for bore and stroke were all over the place, LOL!.

As a gunsmith, I have ways to measure the guns in all their states, and an important measurement is what's the REAL stroke of a specific rifle.
The way to measure this is to disassemble the gun, remove the spring, and use a "proofing" spring.
These springs are weak springs  (2.5/3 mm's WD) that are powerful enough to make the gun operate, but would probably yield less than 3 ft-lbs if used to fire a pellet.
So a proofing spring was installed and the distance of travel between the positions of the piston's stem's notch start was measured:
Picture
Here we are marking the start and the end of the stem's notch.
Picture
Now the gun has been cocked
Picture
And we measure the distance. In this case the measurement was 71 mm's
To our "chagrin" the Titan #7 has a solid length of 99.06 mm's

Huh?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

So, a courteous Email was sent to HW.
​
And the very nice answer was: 
"...
The cocking stroke of the mod. HW50 is about 71 mm.
...
"
Ooops!

We're in trouble. With 71 mm's of stroke there is no way a 26 mm's bore piston will reach the 12 ft-lbs without combustion in 0.177" cal.

After some conversations with the owner, he was gracious enough to allow experimenting to see where we could take the gun.

And from there, the title!

I assume everyone in the USA is familiar with the Army motto "Be all you can be"

Well, this little "recruit" was going to become "Private HW50" in boot camp, and we WERE going to find out what "All that he could be" meant.

Taming the beast

The "beast" here is HW's extremely complicated method of assembling the gun.

You not only have two main pins (as in almost all other brands); you have, in addition, 4 little "blocks" that have very peculiar shapes (luckily, all of them are identical), and are destined to reinforce/lock the "closure" of the trigger block into the mechanisms tube.

I KNEW I was going to assemble and disassemble this rifle MANY times, so I needed to device a way to do it efficiently, with the least amount of effort possible
and SAFELY.
And so, I went looking for a "secret weapon" something that would allow me to push the little blocks out of their recesses without damaging anything.
After some time at the bench contemplating how to build a tool, I was tired and I returned to my desk, only to find the solution staring at me in the face:
Picture
Yup!
Those little thingies have two spring "legs" that, when removed, look like this:
Picture
AND, if you choose the right size, and if the little blocks are not damaged, they push BOTH blocks out at the same time, but we are getting ahead of ourselves.

Let's start at the beginning of the disassembly.

First of all, with a quality gun, ALWAYS look for the best fitting screw driver you have for EACH slot.
Especially because European slots are "thinner" than American slots AND are parallel; and so, sometimes you NEED to MAKE a special screwdriver for specific brands/models of guns.
IDEALLY, gunsmithing screwdrivers have hollow ground blades, meaning that the "blade" that enters the slot should have PARALLEL sides. Something that is not common in SAE screwdrivers.
Most modern airguns are adopting industrial socket standards, like Allen; even Torx are not unheard of.
BUT HW is a traditionalist, and so, slotted screws you will get and the best screwdriver needs to be found/made.
For THIS case it was not too difficult; on one hand the gun had been disassembled previously and it showed, the slots were a bit "chewed", but that gave us a chance to "chase" a bit the slots, so that they fit perfectly a SAE screwdriver:
Picture
For reference and informational purposes ONLY, this is Craftsman 9 41586 + WF  / 5/16".

IF the gun had arrived to me in pristine condition, I would have ground the tip to make the sides parallel, but in this case it made more sense to use the screwdriver's tip to "iron out" all the burrs and ensure a positive grip and drive.

At the price of these drivers, it really makes no sense not to customize the driver to the screws of a new gun.

Once the stock screws are removed, the trigger guard can be removed:
Picture
IMHO, the inletting could be a bit tighter, as the shelf that supports the guard, while enough for any reasonable torque applied to the REAR trigger guard/trigger block screw, it does seem a little "slim".
It would be fairly easy to cut a square box for the trigger block, there are tools that do that; alternatively, a much smaller tool could be used to cut a "rounded corners square hole", but either would imply changes in the tooling / CNC process and undoubtedly would add cost to the gun.
Now, no one in his/her right mind would put 45 in-lbs of torque into that rear screw, but here comes another problem: That screw is about 2mm's too long. If you tighten it enough to prevent "play" (which would bring vibrations and inconsistencies), then the trigger mechanism will not latch.
It MAY be that different stocks require different lengths and therefore ALL the guns get the same screw, That's fine as a "value engineering" but if this is your model, just take a file and remove between 1 and 2 mm's of length and be done with it.
​
So, stock removed, you have access to the mechanisms:
Picture
This gun has no "cocking shoe", which means that extra care needs to be put on the fit of the spring to the ID of the piston, and the piston to the ID of the tube., but more on that later, let's keep on disassembling "Private HW50".
​First thing is to push out the trigger block pins, yes, you need to do this first!

You start with the REAR PIN:
Picture
This allows you to hold the safety AND raise the rear end of the trigger block.
When you raise the rear end the safety will, literally, shoot out under spring pressure, but since you are holding it, you will not loose any pieces.
Now, you remove the FRONT pin:
Picture
POP Quiz!
If you only follow the pictures, you will get it wrong, hope you are reading carefully the text.


;-)

With the pins removed, you can lift the trigger guard by the REAR section and remove it from the gun.
At this point in time you still do not need a spring compressor.:
Picture
Once the trigger is removed, cock it:
Picture
It will make life so much easier upon assembly.

​And now you can use our "secret weapon" to push the locking blocks out:
Picture
Picture
If some of the blocks resist this pressure, then aid yourself with your screwdriver:
Picture
Depending on how "rough" the locking blocks are, you may opt to sand them down a bit, or not, that is up to you.
Picture
Picture
It may be that, at first, some of the little blocks will not come out at all, even under screwdriver's aid.
In that case, as long as ONE of them comes out, you can use a slimmer drift punch to drive it out:
Picture
Now we are ready to head to the spring compressor, and before anyone says anything, if you don't want to use a spring compressor, be my guest.
​Using a spring compressor is the SAFE (for both, the GUN and YOU) way.
If you do not want to be safe, or have little regard for YOUR gun, then "it's your party and you cry if you want to"; just reserve your opinions to yourself.
To do it easily and properly, you need to have some sort of "thrust bearing" between the rifle and the end of the spring compressor:
Picture
I have all sorts of bits and pieces, and so, this is just the stub of a Teflon bar. It will not mar the rifle's finish and it will allow the rear plug to rotate with little friction.
In this gun, the "thrust" of the spring against the piston is contained by that "locking lug" in the closing piece that gets rotated into place when assembling, and rotated out of "lock" to disassemble.
So a LITTLE pressure into this piece from the spring compressor (just to make sure there is no contact between the "face" of the locking lug and the mechanisms tube), and the pieces can be rotated "out of battery":
Picture
Once completely rotated "out of battery" then the closing piece can begin to slide out:
Picture
In here, it must be said that for some of the spring/guide combinations used here, which require a somewaht substantial pre-load, it was beneficial to rotate the TWO parts into each other, rifle AND closing piece.
For disassembly, this may also apply.
In any case, once the piece has begun to slide, it can then be slid out completely:
Picture
Picture
As long as you are only changing a spring, this is as far as you need to go.
At this point in time, you swap the old for the new spring, assemble in reverse order, and you're done!

However, if you want to change the piston seal, or the piston itself, you will need to further disassemble the rifle, and you start by disassembling the hinge pin in the forks, which requires to break the barrel to remove tension from the hinge/forks interfase:
Picture
Start by the "nut" on the right side of the gun, again, ensure that you select the best possible screwdriver for the job, if you do not have an ideal one, make it.
Once the "nut has been removed, you can remove the split washer underneath it :
Picture
A magnet is useful in these cases and once the split washer is removed, you can turn over the rifle, unscrew and take out the hinge-pin/screw from the left side:
Picture
Once the hinge-pin/screw has been removed, you can "wiggle out" the barrel block being careful not to loose the very thin washers that the factory put in there.
Picture
Once the barrel block and the forks have been "divorced" then the cocking lever can come out of its recess:
Picture
And once the cocking lever has come out, the piston can slide to the rear, while the barrel assembly can slide to the front:
Picture
With the piston out, serious measurements can take place and the planning for the modification starts taking shape:
Picture
If you ever get the piston out of your HW50, do look at the inside of the compression chamber. If it looks like this:
Picture
It needs a DEEP cleaning, LOL!

Plug the TP with a small wooden dowel, spray with "Gumout"  Carb cleaner, cover the rear, stand vertically, and let it sit overnight. Then scrub with a long wooden dowel wrapped in paper/cloth and clean again.
Then clean with acetone or lacquer thinner (that also is made up of acetone), till you get something like this:
Picture

The "tune"

Using the metric punch pin as a "position holder" (3rd picture above) we can clearly see that the piston has ample room for improvement.
The Vortek seal at the top left (black one) is the same for the 95 as it is for the 50, which is peculiar, but that's what it is. The OEM seal is even taller. There's 0.4 mm's between the two, but that is what makes the rifle have (in HW's own words) "a stroke of about 71 mm's".

We also measured the TP and it is not too long.
One peculiarity is that, while not completely horizontal between compression chamber and barrel, the inclination of the transfer port is somewhat shallow:
Picture
Barely 20°, which means that the origin of the air flow from the compression chamber into the barrel's breech is at the top of the piston, not at the center.
And this may be the cause of an asymmetrical wear/galling of the piston, but we'll talk about that later.
We ran a rather long and exhaustive series of tests with "Private HW50"

We had FIVE springs, two guides, two top hats, and two sealing technologies (and three different ORing Materials).
We did NOT run all the possible 120 different tests, but we did run a fair number, enough to have a good "grasp" of what makes these little rifles "tick".

I MUST emphasize that NONE of these tests were run as "conventional" tests. ALL test were restricted to the "pop" gun (as per Cardew's definitions), with NO dieseling allowed to contribute to the energy output.

A true "Boot Camp" for the "recruit".

Just to list the springs we tested (later cut down to max allowable length for THIS piston/gun combination):
Maccari XLD 120-775/30
Vortek 118-780/30
Vortek 118-745/30
Vortek 113-780/30
Titan XS #7 127-793/30

Energies yielded as a "pop-gun" with Vortek piston seal:

-The Maccari XLD spring 120-775 yielded on a first test:
10.7 ft-lbs.- JSB/7.33
10.5 ft-lbs.- JSB/8.44

- The Vortek spring 113-780 yielded:
9.0 ft-lbs.- JSB/7.33
8.7 ft-lbs.- JSB/8.44

-The Vortek spring 118-745 yielded:
9.4 ft-lbs.- JSB/7.33
9.0 ft-lbs.- JSB/8.44

At this point in time, 
it became clear that the swept volume was not enough to reach much higher energy levels
We should also note the incredible versatility of these little rifles. With a 0.113" WD spring they can be perfectly setup for any young/small framed shooter with little upper body strength and still  yield around 8 ft-lbs
With "stronger" WD's it becomes a respectable performer that will be perfectly legal under UK law.


Since the owner wanted to compete in FT, a minimum of 11 ft-lbs was deemed logical.
Yes, it is true that many championships have been won at 10.5 ft-lbs, but these are champion shooters that have extraordinary abilities in wind-gauging and range-finding; for "mere mortals" a minimum of 11 ft-lbs is a logical starting point. 
AND, you need to remember that this is a breakbarrel rifle.
Also, a new batch of JSB/7.89 arrived and so I decided to include them.

The "Mod"

In order to achieve a larger swept volume we decided to convert the piston to an ORing head piston and allow the maximum stroke / volume possible.
Once all the "travels" had been checked, it became clear that we could go as high as a 77 mm's stroke with no secondary effects on the cocking lever, or the piston's channel.
We ordered a new piston, just in case we needed it and it is pictured below side by side with an ORing head piston. IF the modification, for any reason, is not desired, we can swap back to the OEM piston without any problems, as no other part of the gun was modified.
The difference between the total length of the OEM piston and the CCA O'Ring piston is 4.5 mm's so the rifle is not completely "maxed out". I distrust things that are maxed out. But that is just me.
In reverse of my usual tunes that involve short stroking a larger gun, this is the "long-stroking" of a smaller gun.
​
Picture
Picture
Going from the Vortek seal to the ORing head piston, the added stroke added 39 fps / 0.4 ft-lbs to the yield of the gun with the 7.9 grs pellet.

The CCA O'Ring head piston can take any ORing of the specified size. However, it has been our experience that some ORing materials are better than others for each manufacturer. Meaning that the "harmony" between one material and the compression chamber it is working in depend on a number of factors; among them: steel, uniformity and finish. Differences in output can be substantial; as an example, between the worst and the best materials, the MV's varied between 750's and 790's (5.4%) using the same pellets, spring, guide, and tophat.


Having determined which material was the best for this case, we proceeded to center ourselves in the 7.89 grs. pellet, as it seemed to draw out the best characteristics of "Private HW50": best shot cycle, and best energy.

One thing we noted was that the little rifle tended to "gall" the front lower section of the piston and the high rear section of the piston (the asymmetrical wear described above), this started happening with the Vortek seal, so we installed buttons that stopped the process.
Just to clarify, this is not the same "galling" that has been described as happening on the OUTSIDE of the action via an excessively spaced "linear bearing" in the cocking lever.

Picture
Picture
Upon re-test with the 7.9 grs. pellets, we discovered that the Maccari spring had lost 30 fps on the first 100 shots, and was now yielding 10.4 ft-lbs
We spaced it up using one and then two washers that are 2.3 mm's thick (main reason why I do not want to start maxed out), but the power output did not increase at all for the 1 washer test, remaining at 10.4 ft-lbs.
And increasing only slightly to 10.6 ft-lbs for the two washers test.
It is clear then that, for the spring in question, the compression chamber had reached the maximum output possible.
Once we re-installed the Titan XS #7 spring, output came out at 10.8 - 10.9 ft-lbs
And so, we concentrated now on learning what was the best lube for this barrel.
For that, we tested in 20 shot strings, the performance of the 7.89 grs. JSB Exact lubed with T-9 and with baked Pledge.
Here is a scatter chart of MV's. Do note that the origin of the chart is 500 fps, that origin was chosen to be able to discern the small variances in MV with a 0 fps origin, the variances are invisible.
Picture
The statistics themselves are interesting:
Picture
As you can see, the lubricant used on the pellets had somewhat of an effect on the performance.
At 788.2 average fps for the 7.89 grs. pellet yields 10.9 ft-lbs which is real close to the objective.
With an ES of 13, BUT a SsD of 3, it tells us that there were some "rogue" pellets in the tin that pushed the ES, but were unable to spoil the sample Std Dev. beyond the 3 fps. (an advantage of the 20 shot strings). Do remember that in a proper "normal" distribution, the ES is ABOUT 3 times the sd.
For statistical sakes we use the Sample standard deviation, that penalizes even further the number.

And, it could also be a question of the whole system "settling down".

We'll see what happens in the second part of this "Boot Camp" when we test for accuracy

So, keep well, shoot straight, and stay tuned!

HM
8 Comments
Scrinja link
5/10/2024 07:03:59

Hector the Problems with the galling issue is well known over in the Uk almost every forum has it on there site but not as good as your investigation on its failing coming from Weihrauch this really should have been sorted at the factory years ago they are fully aware of it as i told them some eight years ago myself
They are not making them like in the old days Im afraid ?
You do a great story on everything you do and look forward to your conclusion at the end
Regards to you and yours
Rob Garcia
UK & Spain

Reply
Hector Medina
5/10/2024 09:29:20

Gracias, Roberto!

I THINK there are TWO different issues.
-One is the INSIDE galling of the piston, where my theory is that it is the asymmetrical position of the transfer port in such a small rifle what pushes the piston DOWN at the front and naturally, it goes UP at the rear.
-The other is the galling of the cocking lever on the OUTSIDE, as explored by some in the UK ePress.

I lubed the external channel with Ultimox and there has been no galling there, after all, it is a "slow" movement and galling is usually the result of relatively high linear speed rubbing. But Ultimox is no match for "mis-paired" materials rubbing against each other, which is the case of the piston.

Now, they COULD be interrelated, because without the cocking shoe, the cocking linkage pushes UPWARDS on the rear of the piston and that could well leave the piston in a slightly downwards "attitude" that, when released WILL produce galling at the bottom front.
These two could even add to each other.

Complicated beasts, these airguns of ours, LOL!

Thanks for reading!





HM

Reply
Robert Garcia
5/10/2024 10:25:59

LoL Thanks Hector Buddy i really dont think these pellet guns well the HW50/90 in the Uks case lol are complicated
As we both know they just have to have the spanners put on the Majority of them in your case and mine lol
Making what should be a good Weihrauch out of the box into a Great Rifle they Weihrauch have had enough time now to get it right Hector so thats why i enjoy all your how to make a good rifle better series
I will add as the 50/99 is on the cheaper scale of the market with just abit of work they are a cracking rifle when sorted
looking forward to your journey with it you always learn me something and also have a great sense of humour must be all that Spanish blood in both of us lol
Adios mi Amigo
Rob

Scrinja
5/12/2024 09:19:30

I think Shergar a member from the AGF UK forum does not agree and has his own views on the galling issue
I hope you dont mind as i invited him to contact you in the reply Section Directly So he may be able to teach us all something
We will have to wait and see lol
Que tengas un buen fin de semana hector saludos
Rob

Reply
HW99Fan
5/12/2024 16:39:38

Hi Hector,

A few points/questions if I may.

1) Titan springs are not supplied at the correct length. If you look at the specifications or a list of guns that each model of Titan spring fits, you'll notice it is a very big list containing many brands and models, of which there aren't many similarities. Each model of Titan spring is designed to fit as many rifles as possible, so they are purposely supplied over length and are intended to be cut to length.

2) Given there is no initial benchmark of how this gun shot with the factory spring, I assume any conclusions from the new internals will be nullified by the lack of initial benchmark?

3) The "galling"/contact area on the skirt of the piston has nothing to do with the transfer port. It's just the geometry & how the cocking forces are applied to the piston, although the cocking motions primary objective is to push the piston back, it also skews it - resulting in contact against the actions ID. This occurs on basically every springer I've come across - and on sliding breech rifles too; HW77/97/TX200s exhibit the exact same witness marks on the comp tubes & action walls - it is unavoidable without a bearing surface soft enough not to score the steel. This isn't to say the piston doesn't rattle and bounce off the walls on firing, but the effort exerted by the spring helps keep it central assuming a flat surface exists between spring & piston.

4) HW99s/50s have plenty enough internal volume at 38cc to produce 11FPE in .177 without combustion; most 99s/50s are leaving the factory doing this power. In the UK, we sometimes have issues with HW99s exceeding our limits...

5) From a practical standpoint, wouldn't it be easier to short stroke a 95/98, with it's 26mm cylinder being identical to the 99/50 and there being more spring room, than it would be to try long stroke a 99/50?

Looking forward to part two, the strip down guide you've done here (and the bulldog clip trick) will be helpful to many.

Reply
Hector Medina
5/13/2024 12:38:10

Hello HW99Fan;

I assume you are "Shergar"; if so, welcome; if not, welcome anyway, LOL!

Thanks for reading, it's acute readers like you that keep us writers on our toes, so, thank you!

Going by numbers:

1.- As a professional airgunsmith in the US, I have no problems with artificial power levels. I tailor each gun to the needs of the user and the capabilities of the gun itself. Not all 48's or 34's or 200's or 97's are created exactly alike. Some like a bit more, some like a bit less, that is part of the job here, to find out where a specific gun makes the customer most happy, and it depends on the gun and the customer.
I have used almost exclusively Titan springs for more than half a decade and so, I know them well.
I use full size #4 mostly in DIANA airguns that want to be at full power; the #1 is my "Quasi-Universal" spring, and that I cut down, forge, and square for the specific gun at hand; from Walther LGU-V, to DIANA's that do not require full 20 ft-lbs levels of energy yield.
I have also used No's 3,5, 9, 10 and 14 for different applications.
What surprised me was the LARGE difference in the OEM Titan #7 and the end result.
Usually, all it takes is to lop off 1-2 coils, not 5.

2.- You are correct, there was no "benchmark" and that is why I went to the "horse's mouth" to get the numbers. As per HW, the OEM spring is a 3,1 mm's WD and a RL of 285 mm's. BUT, without a pitch and/or a # of coils and a RL, there are many springs that could or could not fit and work in the little rifle.
What we DO know is that the gun was sent to other "tuners" before with no success ....

In that sense, the current conclusion is that the gun is better now than it was.

:-)

3.- I looked at "galling" for the HW50/99 and came up with two different kinds.
Since we are talking about the internal galling of the Piston, and I have already noted what you say in the article, then HW is spending money uselessly in the compound linkage of the cocking lever.
That money would be better spent in a cocking shoe. Because a well designed cocking shoe with a groove for the mechanisms tube to ride on AND a groove for the piston to align with would cost less than the compound linkage currently in place and would do the job in a nicer way.
As far as my experience is concerned, you cannot have galling at slow speeds, and the piston's cocking on the way BACK can hardly be called high speed.
IF this is what is causing the galling (the cocking action), then a simple hardening of the piston's skirt would be the solution.
Not complicated to do with an induction coil of the right size, $5 of labour and the proper steel spec for the piston.
I understand this would add $20 to the MSRP putting the gun at $367, but, it would be a good way to uphold the brand "quality".
A harder steel in the piston would prevent all galling there.
HOPEFULLY, HW will read this and do some tests and improve on the model, that is already a good gun, but can be improved at least in this aspect.

4.- You're correct that the maths point to about 38 cc's (1.3² X 3.1416 X 7.1), in reality, the swept volume depends on the sealing technology (as some parachute seals are well into their first 5 mm's before sealing completely) and, in a PURE "Pop gun" regime they are incapable of delivering 12 ft-lbs in 0.177 cal. In 0.22" maybe.
Even our initial tests with all the 5 different springs available, none of them yielded 11 ft-lbs in a sustainable way.
Add "fossil fuel" and yes, now it is doable. But this project is all about ABSOLUTELY NO COMBUSTION.

There is a simple test for this:
Fire 5 shots, and then smell the muzzle.
IF there is the faintest trace of combustion, then you are adding fossil fuel to the cycle.
It may be small, but most of the times, it isn't.

I believe that IF those HW99's that come out at "UK Illegal" power levels were stripped, then cleaned with brake cleaner, then lacquer thinner, then acetone, and then lubed with a pure Teflon lubricant, they would not exceed the legal power levels anymore.
I may be wrong, but this is what my experience tells me.

AaMoF.- If you are interested, I invite you to do the test and write it up taking some pictures along the way, I would be glad to publish it here. As you can see, there are several "guest blogs" that have been published and it would be interesting to see a different POV.

5) I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. That is why 90% of my work is toning down full power DIANA's to a user-friendly level (I've done a few 97's and more than a few LGU's) . This may mean 20 ft-lbs for the larger DIANA guns in the 48 family, and even 22 ft-lbs in the "Magnum" versions (350 and 460), or 13 ft-lbs for the LGU's and 97's.
I also do a lot of FT guns that are short-stroked.

As a Custom / Bespoke airgunsmith, however, I need to work with what the customer wants, . . . and make it fit his needs.

I have already received half a dozen comments (some of them personally) on the strip-down procedure, LOL! Thanks for that too

Reply
HW99Fan
5/13/2024 17:18:15

Regarding 1), Titan Springs, it's unusual to me that the Titan 7 was recommended. A 10/10+ is usually a great choice, perhaps given your location and perceived expectation of export power limits, they saw it suitable to recommend something a little stronger.

I would be interested to see how concentric and parallel the walls of the compression tube of the HW50 is, as I have seen several with bumps and tapers towards the end plug, and it is usually these that fail to make power. For these guns, an oversized seal usually helps, whereas a sized seal will be down on power.

In regards to galling, it is irrelevant of speed as far as I am concerned. It is just one material picking up & abrading another.

Whilst on the topic of galling, newer HW50s & 99s do not gall externally where the cocking linkage makes contact with the OD of the action. Due to Weihrauch fitting the delrin insert (which is far too thick) and a spring, this combination attempts to "pulls" the cocking foot out of the comp tube, obviously it cannot pull out of the slot, so it abrades down either side of the slot, internally. This causes two lines of abrasion either side of the slot, and an action full of swarf. It's much worse than the old type of external galling, where swarf accumulated on the outside. Weihrauch really dropped the ball here, and given the linkage is the same part as on the HW35, that suffers too. You can feel this occuring if you assemble the gun with no spring, and sweep through the cocking motion.

In terms of power & whether it is dieseling, I do not run my springers with any conventional grease or oil. I use a tungsten disulfide & molybdenum mix applied dry - it is entirely inert in the way of combustion, and with a more efficient seal than the factory thick lipped HW, I was not on the correct side of our limit. This is only my experience, but I know it has been replicated with others.

I do not believe hardening the piston skirt would help, it would simply shift the abrasion to the action. Consider this:

A TX200 comp tube is hardened into the low 50s on the Rockwell scale, that's pretty hard. It doesn't gall, but take a look inside a TXs action, internally, right under the dovetails. You'll see a bright silver track worn into the steel - the problem has simply been shifted elsewhere...

The above anecdote is also why I believe the galling is low speed, caused on cocking and won't be remedied by a cocking foot - a TX200 has a cocking foot, and the compression tube only moves on cocking, it's entirely stationary on firing, subject to only slow speeds, yet there's signs of galling there. Consider the surface area (very small) and effort (relatively high) exerted on the contact points during cocking - it is prime for galling, subject to immense surface pressure.

On every spring gun I've disassembled that lacks bearings on the piston (if breakbarrel) or compression tube (if lever cocking), has witness marks present on either the piston, comp tube or action - whichever is softest. Even if it has a cocking foot, it is not possible to pull or push the piston without skewing the assembly unless the piston or compression tube is held parallel to the action by way of front and rear buttons or bearings.

Hector Medina
5/15/2024 12:53:11

Thanks, HW99Fan!

Regarding point #1.- the #7 spring is the one that is printed in their guide.
Still, no sweat, in the end, it proved to be a good spring, just needed a good "cropping", LOL!

Thanks for bringing the uniformity and homogeneity of the compression chamber to my attention, it is one of those things that I seldom check because it is one of the problems that is best addressed with an ORing seal (when properly executed).
I will look into it, Thanks!

Regarding "Galling".- Clearly we have different definitions of galling.
To ME, Galling is an extreme case of rubbing where two metal parts meet and the similarities of the hardness's cause one part to scratch deeply the other. And this is, usually in steel, a high speed phenomenon.
When two steel parts have dramatically different surface hardness, the hard part will "wear" the softer part, but if the finish is reasonably good, there will be no actual deep scratches.
This is what I would call "burnishing" and it is something to be used for the benefit of the mechanism. Not completely avoided.

Normal "wear marks" (burnishing) that are only a few ten-thousandths deep are not galling in my book.

From that standpoint, what you see in DIANA sliding compression chamber marks are just "wearing-in marks" and. as things "run in" to one another the smoothness of the operation increases. No need for "linear bearings" of any sort there, the parts are hard enough that once the parts "mate" they will work well together with little lubricant.
It is also what I normally see in DIANA pistons (both types, the turning and the non-rotating ones). The skirts will get "polished" with use, but once they are polished, no further degradation of the surface will occur.

This is not what I am seeing with this rifle. The marks are deep and they kept growing for each disassembly and test.
Undoubtedly, the UHMDPE buttons will do their job, it's what the material is designed for, so, maybe this is something I just need to accept as a characteristic of this model/brand.

That it could be properly done from the factory is a no-brainer, but then the fact that modern factories are not always conducted by technical people alone is a sad reality of our day and age.

I tried the dry lube thing with several "dusts" from MoS2 to graphite, and I found the "quality" of the shot cycle suffered, but since this is a perceptual/personal aspect, there is little I can offer in the way of hard numbers to decant opinions one way or another.

I have never done an "old" HW50, so I have no experience with the older versions.
Technically speaking, it is clear that the idea behind a compound linkage is to reduce the perceived cocking effort AND to make the push-back of the piston a more "in-line" thing. I cannot see a HUGE force being applied to the piston UPWARDS during the cocking stroke becase the "pawl" that enters the piston is prevented from going OUT, but there is nothing against which it can PUSH the REAR of the piston UP.
MAYBE it is the excentricity of the force applied what makes the piston's nose to "dive" and then that makes the tail "rise", but still, there should not be that much abrasion in hardened parts.

We also agree that the delrin insert in the cocking linkage is not the right thing, as I tried to explain: a cocking shoe with TWO sets of grooves would maintain the piston skirt to tube clearance/distance in a much better fashion. Made with MIM process, it is a $4 part that could be shared across all break barrels in the line.
If that was done, then a wider base in the piston seal could also act as a linear bearing for the front damage-prone section. As to WHY that is the bottom of the front, is still unclear to me.

Again, thanks for suggesting getting into the internal measurements of the compression chamber.

Keep well and shoot straight!




HM

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    Hector Medina

    2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
    2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
    2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
    2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
    2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
    2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
    2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
    2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
    2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
    2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
    2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
    2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
    2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
    2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF 
    2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
    2022 WFTC's Italy
    2nd Place Veteran Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa Member TEAM USA 1st place Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa
    2nd Place Veteran Springers

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