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Exploring the DIANA Stormrider, Part 1.- The Trigger and The Power Plant in 0.177"/4.5 mm's cal.

2/18/2018

85 Comments

 
Well over a year ago, when Tobias Schmidt and I met at the Pyramyd Air Cup 2016, we had a good conversation.
Among the things we discussed was the idea of expanding DIANA's offerings to the shooters by using OPP's (Other People's Products).
While that did not make me very happy, I understood the need of the company to SURVIVE to then THRIVE (and we will go into that in another blog entry). It was a need mandated by the conditions under which GSG acquired DIANA, and the modern, virtually borderless world we live in.

As time passed and the specifics became known, there was one particular element that intrigued me no end; a small PCP carbine that is marketed around the world under different brands: Artemis, SPA, and others I surely do not know and cannot even pronounce.
DIANA decided to market this small carbine under the name "Stormrider", so as soon as Air Venturi / Pyramyd Air had them in stock I ordered one.

Around that time, Tobias and I met again at the Pyramyd Air Cup 2017 and even more interesting conversations ensued. Nothing firm, but a willingness to work together and the idea of a visit to Ense, to get to know the people there and have some technical conversations. The date was set and a couple of weeks before the trip, my first Stormrider arrived at the workshop and I proceeded to a full analysis and disassembly.

Before we progress any further. my legal counsel again has the floor and he says:
The modifications and operations performed in these tests, and described in this article, were safe for the gun in question. No warranty is given nor implied that these modifications will work or are even safe in other guns of the same style, marketed under different brands.
Working with High Pressure Air has its own risks. If the reader is not fully cognizant and familiar with these, he/she should have the work performed by an established and reputable professional.


OK, so we're done with that! LOL!

Another thing that should be stated categorically is that DIANA's intention, from the "Head Honcho" down to the rest of the Team is that guns marketed under the DIANA brand WILL be as good as can be had OoTB within their class and market niche.

So, let us start then, and I would like to state unequivocally what the Stormrider is NOT:
Picture
A Stormrider is definitely not a P-1000 (which, BTW is now on its second generation as the "EVO 2" improved model.

If you want a gun that gives you 50 shots at 22 ft-lbs, even when shot in quick succession using a magazine, get a P-1000. They are great guns, difficult to work in and difficult to "tame", but they are great guns, powerful and accurate and they have a ton of shots with their 4,500 PSI /300 BAR's tanks.
Picture
What's that little black and brass piece next to the Storm Rider? ;-) We'll see and talk about it in the Power Plant section.
The Stormrider is a completely different beastie.
While some have said that it is a "little" carbine,  I do not fully agree, the reality is that is has a full size LOP:
Picture
Picture
At 14 3/4" it is hardly a kid-sized airgun.
And the distance between the rear of the pistol grip and the trigger, are not for a 10 year old's hands.
If you have considered the Stormrider as good youth/petite's carbine, just be aware that you may have to trim the stock to fit the shorter LOP's needed by those smaller shooters. And that they will have to learn their trigger hand hold and trigger squeeze/release accordingly. It is, though, a svelte lady, and definitely not a rifle, so let's think of it as a carbine.

We will not delve into the OoTB behaviour, that has been researched and reviewed enough in the excellent Hard Air Magazine , in Pyramyd's "Insyder" as well as their sponsored blog, and in several other Video reviews, just go to YouTube.

What surprises me is that in ALL reviews, the main "selling" point of the carbine is its price.

Well, surprise! I am going to go against almost everyone else and tell you that the great attraction of this little carbine is its POTENTIAL.

Yes, to make an analogy that will surely date me as an "old geezer", LOL!, I will say that it is like buying a simple Chevy Malibu (or Dart. or Mustang) and turning it into a small but extremely interesting race car.

Let's start with

The Trigger
Picture
One of the common main comments/complaints  is that the trigger is not adjustable. Well, I have to disagree. The trigger may not be EXTERNALLY adjustable, but inside there is . . . you guessed it, potential!

First of all any half baked gunsmith can stone/polish the sear. Yes it is a lengthy process if you want to do it right. But you can do it without any sophisticated tools. You can use wet-or-dry paper laid on a piece of thick plate glass and progressively use grits: 380, 400, 600, 800, 1,000, and 1,200 with water. If you want to get it really well done, then a sliver of black hard Arkansas whetstone (which you should have if you are a hunter because nothing gives a better edge to skinning knives than black hard Arkansas whetstones) can give the sear the ultimate polish.
Avoid using a Dremel because you do NOT want to change the angle or the flatness of the sear. 

You should end up with something that looks like the above piece.

Next comes the trigger blade:
Picture
Yes, there is a screw in there, and where there is a screw there is some adjustability.

A home tinkerer can simply adjust this screw that regulates the engagement of the sear into the hammer and can turn the trigger from a lengthy and/or gritty experience to the proverbial "breaking glass rod" of a trigger that is conducive to good shooting.

A professional gunsmith will reverse the direction of insertion, use a stubby allen wrench (1.5 mm's), change the screw and use either a rounded/polished face screw, or a cone point.
​If the polishing of the sear was well done, the cone point offers a degree of repeatability that the rounded face screw does not. But only if the polishing phase has been done properly.
Picture
 On the left is the OEM screw, on the right is a cone point screw.

If properly done, the trigger can be as light as a fraction of a lb.

AGAIN: ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOUR GUN IS SAFE! Submit the gun to the bump test: dropping it butt down from 12" height and it should NOT fire. If it does, readjust and repeat.

The trigger will be a single stage trigger, there is no way around that, though we are working with DIANA on a new design that will be a true double stage trigger.

Of course, do not forget to Loc-Tite your setting!

For a modicum of effort and very little cost you will have a trigger that breaks cleanly and consistently, and depending on how well you did your job, it can also be very light and still safe.

A note here: NEVER use lubricants between sear parts. It will provide an inconsistent release that will be thermally sensitive and what is safe in temperate/cold weather may become completely unsafe in hot weather. Let the hardness of the metal injection molded parts and your polishing do the friction reduction.

Now. let's go the next area:

The powerplant in 0.177" cal.

In general, I would say that the 0.177" cal. is a target/plinking/expert hunting caliber. You need to be a good shot to take any major prey with the smallest normally available caliber. Head shots, long stalks/short ranges, and good field craft are essential to being a successful hunter with a 0.177" cal. rifle It IS doable. Lots of our cousins across the pond do it day in/day out. But it does need a well practiced, ethically minded, and precision/accuracy oriented hunter.
Yes, the gun can yield around 20 ft-lbs in 0.177" cal. Yes it can be done, and if there is enough interest (hint: if you want it, ask for it in the comments section) we'll go there, but the OEM architecture of the gun has its greatest  . . . potential!  ;-)  at around 12 ft-lbs.
Another aspect is that there is a ton of literature, data, serious experiments, and documentation at this power level. I would say that thanks to the FT shooters, no pellets are better understood than the JSB's Exacts in their Express (7.89 grs)  and Mid Weight (8.44grs.) versions.
Experience has shown time and again that they yield VERY LITTLE in terms of BC and the gain in MV is more than enough to achieve great results with these pellets, even at longish (55 yards) distances.
Of course, it also helps that Predator's PolyMag's in 8 grs. are extremely accurate out to 45-55 yards, usually shoot well in those barrels where the JSB's shoot well, and give the GOOD hunter an extra edge of surety.

So, having explained the reasons to choose this power level, let's think out loud what is the main area of opportunity for improvement.

In my honest opinion, the single greatest area of opportunity is the shot count and consistency.
There seems to be a common denominator between reviewers to resign themselves to work with the 12-20 shot count that a relatively large and steep power curve gives, this is as much an effect of the manufacturing (and therefore a big factor in the low cost of these guns) as it is an effect of the "GAMarketing" practices of trying to sell a gun on the sheer MV or ME.
Using the SAME spring  and hammer for ALL calibers has to be an extremely rough compromise. And yet that is what is done. I repeat that it is one of the factors that allows this gun to sell for under $200 retail, but technically speaking it is a HUGE compromise.

Now, to be quite frank, not everyone has the time, knowledge, nor energy (you need to refill the gun quite a lot of times if you want) to tune it the hard way (balancing the hammer weight, the stroke, the spring and the valve face). Yes it can be done, but it is not an hour's job.
So, my conclusion was that the best way to serve the shooters would be to get a good regulator for these guns.
There are already some regulators in the market for the "Generic" form of the DIANA Stormrider, but some of them are expensive (€ 89,00), some of them require the user to make some modifications to the gun, and some are not easy to de-install, should the case arrive where the user decided he was going to go the hard way.
After some research, and based on previous experiences with HPA equipment, I decided to work with ALTAROS Air Solutions to develop not one, but TWO regulators for these carbines.
Why TWO? One of them needed to be "absolute" (non-vented) regulator, it had to be user installable, without ANY modifications to the gun (as that is completely illegal in some countries), and it had to be easily de-installable.
The other was a more specialized unit that was to be installed by a licensed/certified gunsmith, and it was to be vented.
Vented regulators are more thermally stable, but they are more vulnerable in extremely dusty environments and need to be installed by a competent gunsmith because not only do they require the removal of all the internals of the gun, they also require extreme care in keeping the vent operational when assembling the gun back.

By the time DIANA's invitation to Ense came, my carbine was on its way to the Czech Republic and I already knew exactly what I wanted.

Here I have to commend the diligence, patience, and knowledge of the Altaros people. They listened, and we had some strong and energetic discussions, but the technical know-how and the needs of the shooters prevailed and the end product is more than satisfactory. Working with them was an honor and a privilege.

This is how the regulator looks like when delivered: 
Picture
There is an insertion tool (that also works as an extraction tool), and an adjustment tool. The regulator itself and some spare ORings.

You will need to start from an empty air tube, so either degas it, or shoot it till it is empty. Once the air tube is empty, you can start the installation:
Picture
Three screws link the Stormrider's action to the stock, do note they are ALL different. Do NOT get them mixed up.
Once those screws are removed, you can take the action out of the stock.
Picture
Picture
Do note how the manometer is housed in a sleeve that is then screwed into a "manometer block" inside the air tube. This manometer block also acts as a de-pinger, you can see the inside of the air tube here:
Picture
A look at the train of parts would be like this:
Picture
And a detailed look at the manometer block is here:
Picture
Now, I am showing you this because you do NOT need to disassemble the carbine. The regulator is inserted when all the parts are already inside the rifle. As a matter of fact, you could install the regulator without taking the action out of the stock.
​
You simply remove the end cap of the air tube (CAUTION: MAKE SURE THE AIR TUBE IS EMPTY!!!!):
Picture
You assemble the regulator with its insertion tool:
Picture
By screwing in the insertion tool into the front end of the regulator:
Picture
Lube the regulator's ORings with a QUALITY ORing lube, and then insert the regulator till it stops against the manometer block.
Picture
Here I must make a note:
We've had reports of earlier models of this gun that do NOT have the manometer sleeve and the manometer is screwed directly into the air tube/block.
​
IT IS NOT SAFE IN THESE RIFLES TO USE THESE REGULATORS!
As long as it is a DIANA airgun, it WILL have the manometer block and the manometer sleeve. We tested this arrangement to 300 BAR"s and it proved safe, but it is an arrangement that we cannot guarantee as safe in any gun that does not have these parts. It is up to the shooter to ensure that HIS/HER gun is safe for this conversion.
Picture
On the left is the manometer sleeve, on the right the manometer.
Once you install the regulator, simply cap the air tube and air-up your gun.
For these tests I used a Hill Hand Pump because I wanted to make sure that users did not NEED a compressor, or an air tank to benefit form this mod:
Picture
The technique to use a pump when starting from ZERO pressure is simple:
Give the pump 20 QUICK strokes and ensure that the ORings have been "set".

Then you can start the REAL pumping.
Just in case someone is not aware of this, the proper technique to use a hand pump at high pressures is to "dwell" a littte at the bottom of the stroke.
I drop my full weight (all of my 168 lbs) on the pump handle and count slowly "one", and then raise the handle, then repeat.
The Storm Rider takes 100 more pump strokes (apart from the 20 used to set the ORings) to go from 0 to 220 BAR's.
Once everything is working, it takes just 45 pump strokes to go from 100 to 220 BAR's

By now, I am sure someone is calling me crazy. Why would I pump a gun up to 220 Bar's when it is clearly marked 20 MPa (200 Bar's) max?
Well, on one hand because it is perfectly logical, productive and safe now.

One of the aspects of that huge technical compromise that comes from using the same parts for all caliber guns is that you cannot risk a valve lock. Pumping/filling to more than 200 BAR's is just tempting fate. A valve locked PCP is a grenade just waiting for the next dumb person to pull the pin. That would not be good and so it is to be avoided, but now that we have a regulator, we can pump it JUST above and be perfectly safe.
The 220 BAR's fill point is within the capabilities of the excellent Altaros regulator and it gives a good boost to the shot count and performance of the gun that would be otherwise impossible.

The overall process of opening the air tube, inserting the regulator and refilling the gun takes all of 47 minutes, and that is taking photos along the way, I am sure that it is "quick work" for someone not in the habit of making blog posts, LOL!

But, what have we gained for our investment and our time?

The short answer is that we have gone from "12 - 20 usable shots" (16 in our case) :
Picture
To 35 usable shots:
Picture
Do note that the extreme spread in the "as issued" case was 33 fps and in the "Regged ONLY" case was 27.
So we're trying to compare similar situations. The eagle eyed among you will note that in the "as issued" case the gun was a "20 ft-lbs gun" so, yes the gun was delivering more power, but what is so important about power when you have such a wide variance of MV's, the pellets are not flying at their maximum stability speed and above all, when your machine is being totally inefficient????
​
Airgunners pride themselves in the ability of their airguns to hit small targets at the needed distances with sufficient efficiency, consistency, precision and accuracy for a good hit. Whether that means a clean kill or a downed target, or a perforated bottom of  small can is irrelevant.

But, like they say on TV: "WAIT there is more!" ROFL!

I said that the machine was inefficient. And if you REALLY want to explore the limits of the efficiency of such a small machine, you will have to work with it the hard and long way, but there is a shortcut:

You can "choke" the machine at the point where it is starting to be inefficient and render it more efficient.

How?

Simple! Tailor the Transfer Port to the needs of the pellet.
​
¿THE PELLET?  What is this guy talking about? We're talking about the rifle!  ¿no?

;-)

Yes, but at the very instant of releasing the air blast into the barrel, the pellet is the last "valve" in the system, and therefore a combination of the pellet's weight, hardness and head & skirt diameters will determine what is the "release pressure", thereby effecting an impact on the overall efficiency of the system.

Because PCP's tend to be more efficient with the heavier pellets. I chose to optimize the TP to the 8.44 grs. JSB. and so, after some fiddling with successive numbered drills. I found what I wanted: the smallest TP that will deliver the desired energy, in this case something reasonably close to 12 ft-lbs, and this is the result:
Picture
Yup! 52 (FIFTY TWO) perfectly usable shots between 220 Bar's and 100 Bar's

Good enough for a medium FT match, or a good 3X10 run, or a good night at the stables getting rats. Pigeons in barns and stables need a different approach, and we'll get to that later, when we explore the 0.25" cal.

Do note that we do use "full ballistics data", we do NOT exclude those shots that are questionable, like shots #39 and # 41

Because the "fiddling with the TP" does NOT require "deflating" the gun, I think it is within the realm of most shooters to do.

Are there other ways to improve on the efficiency?  Yes! the main one would be to play with the hammer weight and the spring force. But that takes time and knowledge.

Are there ways to have a gun that is regulated and still puts out 17-18 ft-lbs?  Yes! We started with a "low side" pressure of 100 BAR's. Adjusting the regulator up will also move the speed up. Why would I stop at 18 ft-lbs?  because pellets are not stable much above 875 fps and if you do the maths, that is the speed at which the 10.5 grs / 0.177"cal. pellets reach that energy.

Again, if there is interest, we can come back to this point and explore other "regions of operation".

For those that are graphically oriented, here is a chart showing the comparative charts:
Picture
Do note that the lowest MV shown is 700 fps in the vertical axis.

And just to finish off this section, let me tell you what was the TOTAL DELIVERED ENERGY for each case:

As issued, the gun delivered over the 16 shots 323 ft-lbs.
Regged, the total energy delivered was 480 ft-lbs
Regged and Optimized for 8.44, the total energy delivered was 636 ft-lbs

So in return for your good 45 pump strokes, you get much more when using a regulator and an optimized TP.

Many times we have discussed that MV is not everything, sure it needs to be delivered inside an accurate barrel, but in this case I would say that other reviewers have established that these guns are accurate as they come, regulating them can only help. And that while consistency and stability is not a SUFFICIENT condition for precision and accuracy, it is indeed a NECESSARY one.

If there is interest, we will explore other aspects in different calibers.

Hope you enjoyed the read, keep well and shoot straight!

HM
85 Comments
Matt Coutler
2/22/2018 16:48:51

This is an outstanding article Hector. Thank you for taking the time to share this post with us!

Reply
Hector Medina
2/24/2018 11:03:07

Thanks, Matt!
My pleasure!

Reply
Alejandro O Martinez link
2/23/2018 22:31:32

Very timely article ... I was looking at the Stormrider and Gauntlet as a first PCP. A couple of questions: since this is your Stormrider, are you gonna shorten the length-of-pull to suit you? Also, have you seen the Air Venturi/Seneca Dragonfly ... sorta of a multi-stroke pneumatic version of the Stormrider. https://www.airventuri.com/av/featured-products/dragonfly/

Reply
Hector Medina
2/24/2018 12:28:20

Hello Alejandro!

I wish I could have made an earlier post. But the process of getting the regulator done to the rifle's current specs needed a little more discussion than expected. Still, Altaros made a superb job.
The Stormrider makes sense as a first time PCP because it can be made extremely efficient and pumping it up to 220 BAR's is no big deal for any person in a reasonable state of health. The Gauntlet will require a LOT more pumping.
BUT if you are contemplating the purchase of all the auxiliary equipment (tank or compressor), then it is the same amount of effort.
I generally do not cut stocks, even in personal guns, except when they are very specific in their purpose. For example, my FT guns do have a shortened LOP because 80% of the shots are taken from a relatively compact position. So, no I will not cut this particular carbine. BUT, I can see cutting one for a few of my customers' sons & daughters. Specially when the 5.5 ft-lbs 3P Airgun version gets readied.

I have not seen the Dragonfly. But I have seen the parts diagram and many parts interchange between models. Again, it is the reason why these guns sell for the price they do.
IMHO, the best version of the Dragonfly would be a 0.25" cal.
If the barrels are accurate and it can push a 25 grs. pellet to 16 ft-lbs with 6-7 strokes, it will be a much improved platform yielding the exact same performance as my Barn and Stable "Pigeonator" (the converted Crosman 2200 we have discussed in past conversations). If, on top, it can reach the 24 ft-lbs region with more strokes in 0.22" it can be a very effective tool for a number of other pursuits.
Only time and experience will tell.

Keep well and shoot straight!


HM

Reply
Alejandro O Martinez link
2/24/2018 11:12:14

Steve-in-NC aka: William Woodward is producing a trigger improvement kit for the SPA PR900W, CR600W and CP1 ... 2-Stage SuperSear Kit for Airmax Plinkster, Varmint, CP-1M, Diana Stormrider, etc. --- http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/thread/1516251731/FS-++2-Stage+SuperSear+Kit+for+Airmax+Plinkster%2C+Varmint%2C+CP-1M%2C+Diana+Stormrider%2C+etc.

Reply
Alejandro O Martinez link
2/24/2018 11:27:20

Steve-in-NC aka: William Woodward is producing a hammer debounce device for the SPA PR900W, CR600W that is adaptable with the CP1 ... Free Flight Hammer Debounce Kit for Airmax Plinkster & Varmint, & Diana Stormrider --- http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/thread/1517202459/FS-++Free+Flight+Hammer+Debounce+Kit+for+Airmax+Plinkster+%26amp%3B+Varmint%2C+%26amp%3B+Diana+Stormrider

Reply
Hector Medina
2/24/2018 12:42:15

Yes, Alejandro, we know of those devices and we have received already a proposal from Steve.

I will take it to IWA and present it to DIANA. They will decide what they want to do.

In truth, there are other designs and other proposals on the table and it will be tough to judge on the merits of each and every one of them.

Selecting the company to design the regulators was in itself a process, I am sure we will follow the same orderly and careful process to select the designers of the items that will, in the end, constitute the "Advanced" version of the S-rider.

Part of that process is knowing what improvements give the "most bang for the buck", and in this sense I can tell you that the area with the most "return on investment" has already been covered with the regulator and TP optimizer that readily reduces the contribution of things like the captive spring systems (like the FFH), or the anti-bounce hammers so popular in the UK.

Please believe me when I tell you that DIANA wants to make this version of the gun the best the gun can be within the market niche it shares with other guns of roughly similar price.

Keep well and shoot straight!

Reply
Alejandro O Martinez link
2/24/2018 16:11:43

Since Huma already produces and off-the-shelf regulator for the the SPA PR900W, https://www.huma-air.com/Artemis-PR900W-pressure-regulator (aka: Stormrider), why approach Altaros, a company that carries only one regulator for an SPA airgun - the P12, http://www.altaros.cz/en/29-spa-p12. Why collaborate with Altaros to custom-make two types of regulators for the Stormrider?

Reply
Hector Medina
2/24/2018 16:45:03

Alejandro;

As I wrote in the blog:

..."some of them are expensive (€ 89,00), some of them require the user to make some modifications to the gun, and some are not easy to de-install, should the case arrive where the user decided he was going to go the hard way.
After some research, and based on previous experiences with HPA equipment, I decided to work with ALTAROS Air Solutions to develop not one, but TWO regulators for these carbines."

Lane and HUMA make regulators for these carbines, HUMA regulators are more expensive (€12 which translates to about 16% more expensive) and not that easy to de-install.
They are ALL of the vented style, which, in some European countries, make them illegal for the user to install themselves.
While an individual may choose to circumvent the law, it is something serious companies will not do.
Lane regulators have proven less precise in their mission (Just as an example):

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139886.msg1409818#msg1409818

And the results we have seen in general are not as good as the results we have seen from Altaros units.

Altaros worked with us in a professional, effective, and efficient manner, they developed what was asked of them within the constraints set, and exceeded the goals of precision/accuracy, AND their price is an advantage to the shooters.

I hope you are not complaining about a better product at a better price, LOL!

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!



HM

Reply
RidgeRunner
3/6/2018 13:40:01

Hector,

I thank you, I think. Until I read this blog, I was not giving any consideration to buying a Stormrider. Now I am giving serious consideration to it.

Although a two stage trigger would be nice, I have several air rifles with single stage triggers that are almost as nice to pull as many two stage triggers. There are also fewer parts, which is always a good thing.

I would greatly appreciate it if you were to delve much deeper into this little gem. I would also be interested in the other calibers, most especially .22.

Reply
Hector Medina
3/6/2018 17:00:02

Hello RR!

I completely agree with the single stage/double stage assesment you have. In many cases, I prefer the single stage (too many service rifle matches). As long as we can give the shooter the options for a practical outlay, it is all good. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

I will go into other options/areas of operation later, at this point in time I am a little bit on the busy side, preparing for IWA.
And since no one before you asked for other areas, I decided to indulge my own personal project and look into the possibilities of this little carbine for the Youth-oriented program called "3P Airgun".

Paraphrasing Gral. McArthur: "I'll be back"

So, stay tuned.

Thanks for reading!




HM

Reply
dan house
3/7/2018 15:54:27

Hector

was wondering why you use STD DEV instead of AVG DEV? (other than because your chrony calc's it for you :) ) Great read, and impressive results from what seem little effort.

Reply
Hector Medina
3/8/2018 02:32:49

Dear Dan
I use Sample Std Dev. That differs from the Population Std Dev in that the divisor is the number of experiments minus one.
It therefore gives a more conservative perspective on things.
When your sample goes to the region of 40 to 50 experiments, the difference is usually so small as to not appear, but it is a habit and it is the way my Excel sheets are laid out.

Keep well and shoot straight!

Reply
Alejandro O Martinez link
3/12/2018 20:14:39

Concerning Stormrider accuracy ... based on your findings "I tried to do some testing yesterday but the best I could do was about 3/4" for 10 shots at 35 yards. So, no, not really WFTC's material, but darned good hunting carbine." --- https://airgunwarriors.com/field-target/a-first-look-into-the-possibilities-of-the-diana-stormrider/#post-2788. Do you have any plans for installing a Lothar Walther or Diana OEM barrel on a Stormrider in an effort extract maximum accuracy? How about noise reduction ... do you foresee any more factory effort to reduce rifle report?

Reply
Hector Medina
3/16/2018 10:32:40

Hello Alejandro!

At present I have no plans on swapping barrels because this is not an easy operation to do at home unless you have a thorough knowledge and the machines/tools to do it.

Perhaps in the future, when there are more Stormriders in the market, some of the companies that specialize in offering after market barrels will offer ready-cut barrels for the Stormrider.

As they are issued, they already are "hunting" accurate. 3/4" at 35 yards under windy conditions at 12 ft-lbs speak well for a Carbine that is light and handy.

On the noise side, I would like to remind you that when you are setting the carbine at its more/most efficient level of operation (through the use of a regulator), there is little "extra air" to generate noise.
As an example, the little regulated Stormrider set at 5.5 ft-llbs is quiet enough with the factory moderator that the strike of the pellet in the trap is louder. At 12 ft-lbs my young children can sleep in their bedrooms while I shoot in my backyard.

For the 0.25" cal we are making some other, much more substantial, modifications which later may get into the smaller calibers.

For the time being, the Stormrider will continue to be sold as is.

After all, it IS a $320 all-in PCP SYSTEM (once you buy the packaged rifle/pump). With other brands you are hardly paying for the rifle half of the system with this kind of money! ;-)

Perhaps even more important than the cost of the whole system is that we are always thinking of the guy that does not want to buy a compressor, or lives away from easy air-charging stations and has to contemplate going through the workout that pumping the gun by hand means.

BTW, it is good for your health! LOL!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
Delbert Newsom
8/21/2018 12:23:34

I have one in .22 cal and am wondering if a .25 cal is in the works to market to the public or if parts are available to convert mine to .25 cal. I did add a TKO to quiet it down.

Hector Medina
8/21/2018 16:13:18

Dear Mr. Newsom;

A 0.25" cal. is in the works, but the needs of the caliber are too great for the small frame of the current Stormrider, so a new frame is getting designed that will also be able to allow larger magazines, more power throughput and better barrel-holding, plus MAYBE a full length shroud.

It's going to take a little more time, but we are working on it.

Keep well, thanks for your question, and shoot straight!


HM

Juan link
9/11/2019 07:18:11

Enjoyed your article. In fact, reading it encouraged me to regulate my Diana Stormrider. I did so, successfully. But after shooting the first 21 shots on my newly regulated gun, the knob broke off.

Bummer! I've been looking and looking for how to fix this. But nothing on the internet except advice for a diy fix, but I'm not that handy to machine my own parts. I emailed PA but no reply yet.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Hector Medina
9/11/2019 13:52:43

Juan;

Sorry for the delay, but you posted in a place where it was difficult to find your question. And I am not so sure that there is an easy answer.

IF you were able to extract the stump of the bolt, you can easily use an allen headed screw until you get a replacement bolt.

But if you haven't been able to do this, then you will need to wait till PA contacts you and and sees if they can send you a complete bolt with handle.

If you want, contact me through the contact page and give me the details: date of purchase, model/generation, serial number, etc. And who in PA you have been trying to reach. I'll look into it when I have all the details.

Thanks for reading!






HM

Mister177
4/3/2018 02:18:07

dear hector
Where i live anything above .177 is legally a firearm so i for one would love exploring the upper limits. We are landlocked so dry hpa isnt readily available so a cheap, pump friendly model like this would be gold.

Reply
Hector Medina
4/3/2018 12:21:48

Mister177

That is indeed a peculiar situation, may I inquire where you live?

Since the pellet's stability limits are usually reached at around 850/875 ft/sec, the upper limits of the platform (around 22 ft-lbs), would make la lot more sense in 0.22" than in 0.177"
Pellets with the weight to slow down the MV to the stabililty levels will be too long for accurate flight out of a conventional barrel.
BUT, let me see what we can do.

Thanks for reading!


HM

Reply
Mister177
4/4/2018 10:57:34

Hector
I live in Zimbabwe. We have no power limit just the caliber is limited to .177 (everyone still calls it number1).
I see what you mean about pellet length (the h&n piledriver comes to mind) and im sure barrel twist rates come into play as well.
Cant wait to read more on this
mz

Francisco Estrada
4/7/2018 17:11:25

Hello Hector,
I really liked your article about this Diana carbine. I live in Colombia and I am going to buy said carbine in the USA, but I require the Altaros regulator that you indicated that you could possibly sell. Where is the regulator purchased?

Reply
Hector Medina
4/7/2018 23:19:17

Francisco;

Thanks for your kind words.

I just received the first batch of vented regulators.
Cost is US$95 + PayPal fees + Sh & Ins.

Fill up one of the contact forms (you can do it in Spanish, here: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html ), we can talk about uses, caliber, power level, and putting together a package (gun, pump, regulator, quick change transfer port, and other accessories -EXCEPT RIFLESCOPES-) that may be worthwhile for you to source from one place.

Thanks for reading!




HM

Reply
Robert Alderdice
4/14/2018 03:01:51

I think you’re an idiot! The gun is great for $200. Why spend 100’s more on bull crap? Horrible article

Reply
Hector Medina
4/16/2018 14:18:34

Dear Mr. Alderdice;

I am sure you are right, on all counts. At least my first mother in law would surely agree with you, LOL!

I do think, though, you should re-read the article more carefully.
All I am advocating is investing LESS than $100 on the little carbine to get a performance that rivals the performance of guns in the $500 to $700 region.

I respect those shooters that do not want to tinker with their guns, and the "Old Diana" would completely support that. As would most of the airgun manufacturers. BUT, to be quite frank, the world market is changing and it is not where the NEW DIANA wants to go.

Most airgunners WANT to be able to tinker with their guns and they have voted in the most conspicuous manner: by purchasing those guns that facilitate the tinkering.

In fact, not only the airgun market is changing. The increasing number of toys and other educational devices that stress the "mix and match" mentality, that try to foster the individuals' creativities has grown exponentially in the last 10 years.

The future will belong to those kids that have a "LEGO" based education and mentality. That can quickly, efficiently, and effortlessly find solutions to problems where only a finite set of "building blocks" exist.

Most of the world's progressive educational systems are going that way.

At least that is my read on the situation and my opinion.

Thanks for reading!





HM

Reply
Mike Leeman
4/14/2018 12:02:37

Thank You, Mr. Medina!
I believe You have "sold" me on my next pcp. I Love my Diana's,especially my .22 54 T06 and 75 T01 U. I understand where the Stormriders origins lie,and am fine with that. I thoroughly enjoy a fun little project! You time,effort and expertise is Truly appreciated.
Mike.

Reply
Hector Medina
4/16/2018 14:21:05

Thank YOU Mr. Leeman.

Thanks for reading.

HM

Reply
Robert Alderdice
4/18/2018 21:13:43

Why do I want a pcp with half the capable power so I have a standard deviation of 6 FPS. If this gun can shoot 30fpe why wouldn’t I want to be able to do so. I don’t care about the shot count. If a pcp has the ability to be kinda powerful, why would I want to cut that power in half to have a few more shots. I doesn’t really affect the accuracy. I don’t care if I get 1 shot. If I can shoot up to or over 30fpe why would I limit that.

Reply
Hector Medina
4/19/2018 18:01:22

Dear Mr. Alderdice

I am glad we're having a dialog, thank you for your time.

As far as our research goes, the Stormrider platform, as is made and built, tops out at 25 ft-lbs, and that is in 0.25" cal.

Perhaps it could be made to yield more but that would mean modifying the platform well beyond the capabilities of the home tinkerer. Of course any machinist with the tools and machines could remake the "engine" but that is not what these articles are about.
If we really think there is a market for a 30+ ft-lbs light carbine, we will look into the creation of a slightly bigger engine, trying to preserve the lightness and agility that the Stormrider is establishing as its best handling characteristics.

On the other side, there are MANY valid reasons why a savvy airgunner might want LESS power:
-One might be rules, if the airgunner is competing, whether formallly or informally, in any game that requires complying with a maximum energy level (WFTF Field Target, Bullseye Match, Silhouette, 3P Airgun, etc.)
- Another might be reduced noise level. Backyard plinkers in suburban areas need to heed the needs of the neighbors.
- Another might be shot count. If you are a parent of three children, filling up three PCP's might get tiresome with a short shot count.
- Even some hunting/pesting requires reduced outputs to avoid overpenetration and damage to property/buildings or installations (think pigeons/rats in stables/barns or high level horse pads).
- In some places it might even be a legal question, where you have to shoot at certain power level to be able to shoot.

And I am sure there are other conditions where 30 ft-lbs might completely disqualify the airgun for a specific task.

Another aspect that we need to discuss is accuracy. Pellets exhibit a dramatic drop in potential accuracy when driven past 850-875 fps.
This means that to get ACCURATE energy delivery using pellets, we need to increase the weight and not the speed.

Depending on the caliber, you have accurate pellets between 7.9 grs (0.177") and 31 grs. (0.25") So, on the caliber side the Stormrider would achieve its best results in 0.22" cal using 16 to 18 grs. pellets. but I would think that it would top at around 22 ft-lbs.
Of course the rifling pitch will determine if accuracy is there for longer/heavier projectiles.

We are still pending to do some research into two aspects that have been requested:
a) Upper limit using 0.177" caliber (the user is restricted to caliber, but not energy in his country)
b) Upper energy limit in 0.22" caliber.

Hopefully, you will check back and accompany us in this trip that is proving very interesting!

Thanks again for reading.






HM

Reply
Ed Brown
6/1/2018 17:40:07

Great article Hector. But my Stormrider arrived with the barrel clearance from the tank angled down 2mm and the barrel clamp, under the rear sight, is ovoid, allows constant movement. How can I sight this in when the barrel can move? Seems to me they need a second clamp somewhere in front of the forearm that will stabilize the barrel. Then I could mount a scope and trust the sighting. For now I am using the open sights and sighting it in about every other pumping or 100 rounds. Potential! Ed Brown

Reply
Hector Medina
6/1/2018 18:19:42

Hello Ed;

Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly:
1.- I seem to understand that your barrel reception cavity (the one that receives the barrel shank), is "looking down" Is this correct?
2.- The Stormrider is designed to have a FLOATING barrel, the intermediate barrel band is there to prevent severe stresses in the barrel during normal usage.

We are looking at putting a SECOND barrel band in a more forward position, towards the end of the air tank just before the closing/quick fill piece, but it would also have an oversized hole to allow the barrel to float.

If you care to explain in more detail, I can look into the problem and probably come up with a solution.

If you do not want to post in this blog entry, you can always use the "Contact Page" and I will reply to your EMail directly.

Thanks again for reading!



HM

Reply
Ed Brown
6/2/2018 17:36:58

I have been mulling this over in my mind for two days, mostly out of irritation that the barrel is so flimsy. One fix I can see is to encase the barrel and tank in a clamshell plastic/synthetic, etc stock so the barrel can float free and a kid can still grab it and not bend the barrel or hook the barrel on a bush or tree or lean it too hard and cause damage. The clamshell stock could continue the shape of the breech and even add length to the scope mount. It could also replace the over-wide and nearly sharp trigger guard, allow for an adjustable butt length and cheek rest and maybe even an adjustable pistol grip. And while I am dreaming, why not make all caliber barrels interchangeable? And a quieter safety switch would be appreciated by serious hunters. Potential! I hope to buy a perfected version of this gun before too long.

Ketil Hakestad
8/9/2018 19:03:15

Waiting in suspence for part two, exploring high end of .177 power.
Would have loved to see pressure changes with the unregulated shotstring, but can't have it all I guess ;)

You have given me a lot of tinkering projects for when I get my s-rider on order.
Tywm

Reply
Hector Medina
8/10/2018 18:55:47

Hello Ketil
Actually, each gun would give you slightly different set of pressures at different points in the inverted bathtub curve. I use those readings to set individual regulators to where the efficiency naturally finds a peak, but again, each gun is slightly different.
The Second part will come, but after I return from Poland (going to shoot the World's FT Championships). As a teaser, I can tell you that a H.P. tuned Stormrider can give you 35 good shots at around 900 fps using the JSB Exact Express 7.9 grs (better results are expected with heavier pellets). This is about the stability limit of the pellet, so future tests will deal with other setups and geometry.
It is interesting to note that of those 35 good shots, 31 are regulated. Once the gun goes off the regulator, it still has 4 more good shots (less than 10 fps MV variation).
With two manometers, there is really no reason to end up using "bad shots". LOL!

Keep well, shoot straight and thanks for reading!




HM

Reply
Ketil Hakestad
8/11/2018 08:53:43

No, thank you, for the interesting article and replying so quick.

I see what you say about each gun being different, but I would still think it would give an indication, more importantly, I like graphs lol. Of course some might get information overload, hehe.

Wish you a fun and successful trip to Poland.

KH

Ketil Hakestad
8/11/2018 09:09:29

Forgot to mention, my goal with the stormrider will be to try tuning for a heavy pellet in the higer speedrange. Hoping to find a good heavy pellet/high fps combination that will work together and still give precission. Of course precission having priority. Not really concerned with shotcount.

KH

Reply
Hector Medina
8/12/2018 18:50:13

With such a short barrel, you may need to look into an anti-bounce hammer. And other "timing" devices that may allow to keep the valve open even after the natural time to close has come.
Of course this will reduce substantially the shot count, but if that is out of your priorities, then by all means research it!
I have to look out for the more average shooter, the one that DOES care about a balance between shot count and energy output.

Keep well and shoot straight!


HM

Ketil Hakestad
8/13/2018 07:34:28

That sounds right to me. And having learned a lot from your article, even if you are not tuning for what I aim at, I still learn about the how's and why's to help me reach my goals.

As for the other timing tunings, I think I'd be best off if I wait with them, until I got a good grasp of the tuning you have shown to allready work ;)

And I might even find thet I get the best shooting within a lower power/speed range, and that will be ok to. This being my first pcp, it looks to me to be a great platform for learning a lot about tuning.
So that is probably what I really aim for, learning the pcp "way" I guess ;)

KH

Adam Wilford
8/24/2019 17:55:40

My .177 really likes JSB exact monster pellets at 13.43gn and that is restricted to sub 12ftlbs

Vegard
8/13/2018 08:09:41

Hi, nice article! However, I was wondering, what size transfer port did you end up with? I understand I have to tinker a bit with it to tailor it to my needs, but it would be good to have some sort of reference.

I have the Altaros regulator already, and a spare transfer port, so I figured why not optimise the rifle even more.

Reply
Hector Medina
8/13/2018 12:32:41

Vegard;

Not only the size of the transfer port matters, also the SHAPE.
My two part TP's are made in such a way that they act as valves, "closing" when the air flow reaches certain speeds.

HOWEVER, if what you want is a some starting points, here they are:

Reg set at 80 BAR's.- 1.19 mm's for 5.5 ft-lbs (Olympic Match, or "F" in Pentagon per German Law).
Reg set at 80 BAR's.- 2.75 mm's for 12 ft-lbs (UK limit, also WFTF limit).
Regulator set at 130 BAR's.- 2.95 mm's for 16½ ft-lbs


HTH




HM

Reply
Vegard
8/13/2018 16:11:09

Thanks. With my current setup (original 3.5 mm transfer port and regulator set at 100 bar) I get 38 shots within a 20 fps spread, and 13-15 ft-lbs depending on the pellet used. (No power limit where I live.)

For me that's more than good enough, but things can always improve!

I'll start with a 2.5 mm transfer port and see how it goes, 12 ft-lbs is powerful enough for me as long as it's precise.

Hector Medina
8/13/2018 17:17:33

Excellent!

Keep us posted, Vegard!


HM

Reply
Frank Shulse
8/21/2018 00:13:58

I'm wondering about the possibility of using CO2 to bulk fill the Stormrider. Would one need a different regulator, or no regulator at all? Also, are there adapters available for the tube?

Thanks

Reply
Hector J Medina
8/21/2018 04:59:54

Dear Mr. Shulse

I'm I'm Poland now for the WFTC's, so forgive me for a short answer.
In GENERAL, "dual fuel" guns are a bad idea.
CO2 is sticky, while HPA flows with less viscosity.
So, everything needs to be a little different. If you want and do things properly.
And at under $150 for the Chaser it makes little sense, to me, to try to bulk fill the Stormrider.
Now, making a Chaser you could refill from a bulk CO2 source, now THAT would be interesting.

:-)

Keep well and shoot straight!

HM

Reply
Iwan Novirion
1/10/2019 05:05:33

Dear Sir,

Glad to have more source for this light weight happy hunting airgun, you are such a great story telling :-)
And thank's to Mr. Vegard that bring up to my point about TP.
So... can you give more advise about that, especially about the shape thing?
Some photos maybe?

Thank's in advance. Keep writing and more shoting!

E-one

Reply
Hector Medina
1/10/2019 18:59:53

Hello Iwan!

We're in conversations with DIANA about patenting the device.
So, SORRY, really sorry, but at this point in time it would not be smart on my part to publish pictures.
Again, I apologize and beg your understanding.
Thanks for reading, keep well and shoot straight!







HM

Reply
Iwan Novirion
1/10/2019 21:23:21

Dear Sir,

Of course I understand, Sir. And I appreciate you telling us an easy way about TP. Because I had read before, the instructions were such a long journey to apply it on Lane regulator, not only tailored the TP but also the outlet valve had to be drilled.

Did you know in gen II, SPA has updated the trigger settings? Or this is already your intervention, eh? :-)

Btw, can you confirm that in the next gen, DIANA will provide the regulator for this tiny air gun?

Thank's in advance. Keep writing and more shoting!

E-one

Frank Shulse link
1/10/2019 20:15:47

I purchased a Gen. 1 Stormrider in .177 and I love it! However, something happened to the suppressor. I was shooting at a range with earplugs and lots of firearms around and apparently a pellet caught in the plastic spacers of the suppressor but I could not notice it as I was shooting at 50 yds. I shot perhaps 8 or 9 pellets which balled up in the suppressor completely destroying the plastic insert. I had to remove the suppressor and poke out the mess. Now the gun is MUCH louder. Is there a way to get a replacement insert?

Reply
Hector Medina
1/11/2019 09:23:26

Dear Mr. Shulse;

If you live in the USA, that is a tricky question.
BATF categorizes moderators AND PARTS of moderators as "Prohibited devices", so, no, there is no legal way we can provide the insert.

The moderated/shrouded barrel for airguns and airsoft guns is an EXCEPTION provided by the BATF in the cases where the shroud or moderator is INTEGRAL to the barrel (meaning it takes a LOT of effort and, probably knowledge, to take out the moderator from the barrel). Ideally, BATF would like the moderators in the barrels to self-destruct when tried to be removed, but as with any human endeavour, where there is a will, there is a way. So, the common PRACTICE and enforcement of the law has been that it has to be substantially difficult to alter to be considered "integral".

I don't know how much work you had done to the barrel, but it is probably easier to get another barrel.

USUALLY, pellets break the inserts when they are driven TOO FAST for the weight, or are too long for the caliber.
This causes instability and tumbling inside the moderator.
Reason why some manufacturers limit the length of the pellet to be used by devising shorter magazines. We didn't want to do that.

USUALLY, the sequence I have been able to establish as a "post-mortem" of cases is that someone with an unregulated gun, starts testing pellets, he starts with the heavier ones and goes to the lighter ones, but in the process, the gun has achieved the peak of the "inverted tub curve" and is shooting as hard as it can. It is then the I find these problems most often.

Another case I've seen is someone loading the pellet backwards to show how much "expansion" a pellet can have when shot backwards, Yes it expanded, but before it clipped the baffles and broke them (in this case, it was a legal aluminum Reflex silencer, so the "joke" costed him over $800).

Lastly, a note: regardless of caliber or power level, once you get a regulator into the gun, and optimize the Transfer Port, by the very nature of the operations that give you a increased shot count, the noise production at the muzzle is reduced considerably. If you put all the energy of the compressed air into giving MV to the pellet, then there is precious little "Extra" air to produce noise.

I am VERY interested in your case, if you could, please, drop me a line through my contact page in this website, we can enter into further conversations about what would be the best way to help you.

Thanks in advance!





HM

Reply
Hector Medina
1/11/2019 09:50:39

Dear Iwan;

Sorry that I cannot reply to your reply, but when I established this page, I limited the number of nested replies because I didn't want to promote lengthy discussions. SO I will start a new "thread".

THANKS for being so understanding.

The Gen 2 DIANA Stormrider already has an improved trigger, DIANA calls it a "DIT" (can you guess what the initials mean? LOL!), and it is a great trigger, true two stage, and adjustable for let-off weight.
It is not a match trigger, so, you cannot completely regulate first stage's weight and travel, and second stage's weight and travel, but within the very simple possibilities of the gun, it is indeed a vast improvement.
As Far As I Know, this is already available in ALL DIANA branded guns through the local DIANA retailers/distributors. I don't think SPA can use the DIT in SPA branded guns, though they may come up with an improved trigger of their own.

As to the regulator:
The first shipment of regulators should be getting ready to start their trip to the USA as we write this. It will be the user installable regulator as depicted in this blog entry. It is a non-vented design and it works very well.
This regulator will be available in the US through Pyramyd Air.
If you are not a US resident, you might still be able to purchase this regulator from Pyramyd Air. You will need to check your local laws.

We are in conversations to get a "gunsmith" grade regulator installed at the factory. This would be a vented design and would intrude less into the air tube capacity, BUT it needs to be installed at the factory because it takes the place of parts that are already there. And so, by European Law, we cannot sell this regulator to the customers because under European Law, anything that "adds or removes metal from a gun" needs to be performed by a qualified and certified Gunsmith, or the gun becomes an illegal device.

So, yes, the INTENTION is to have "Gen 3" (or something even better) , soon.

IWA is in three months and there will be SPECTACULAR news from DIANA at the IWA 2019, so, stay tuned . . .

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
Iwan Novirion
1/11/2019 12:50:27

Dear Sir,

Ah it's so great! So it was my mistake that I had guessed it from SPA. DIT ... I think for Diana Improved Trigger, am I right? :-)
So ... when do you have time to review DIT, sir?
Can't wait for that.

Actually I'm from Indonesia. This gun comes with a "Greyhound" brand in Indonesia.

Keep writing and more shoting!

E-one

Reply
Iwan Novirion
1/11/2019 13:23:23

One more question came out from my head, because the standard gauge underneath the stock on Tobias's gun only reads the regulated pressure, you add another gauge at the end of the tube to read the tube pressure. Can you explain how you did it?

Keep writing and more shoting!

E-one

Reply
Hector Medina
1/12/2019 21:58:59

Hello Iwan;

I really don't know, nor can I tell you what SPA or the Indonesian importer (Greyhound) can/will do.
Theoretically, SPA should only place the improvements on the DIANA branded airguns, again, theoretically, the Greyhound branded guns should still be "pure SPA".

About the second (or first pressure gauge). SPA also manufactures the "DIANA Bandit", and the pressure gauge there is integral with the fill port. So I just requested some fill ports with the pressure gauge included and they sent them.
The threads are the same and it was a simple matter to replace one with the other.
Here I have to insist what my counsel tells me to tell you:
"The modifications here discussed are ONLY valid for the DIANA branded airguns. We can have no control of what other importers might be specifying in their orders",

Keep well, be careful and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
Iwan Novirion
1/13/2019 09:30:24

Dear Sir,

Thanks a lot, Sir. So it's DIANA Bandit fill port. Copy that.
I will be careful for what I'm doing with modification.

Have a nice day, Sir. And I will wait for your new articles.

Keep writing and more shoting!


E-one

Robert von Haden
4/26/2019 00:20:05

I called Pyramid Air tech department today (4/25/19) and asked about the Altaros regulator. I was told unless Pyramid Air installed the parts, the warranty is voided. Barrel droop causes sight-in problems with scopes and boring a .22 caliber out of the same stock as the .177 caliber increases the harmonic vibration response(accuracy of pellet). Design a breech that accepts all barrel calibers (.177, .22 and .25 by using thicker stock(minimum thickness for .25 to maximum for .177). Strange that Pyramid Air does not sell the Diana Outlaw. Looking forward to the Gen3 version of the stormrider before I convert from break barrel to PCP. I would like to have multiple caliber barrels to swap on the rifle. Please consider a bandit pistol/rifle kit using the chaser kit as a model.

Reply
Hector Medina
4/26/2019 10:11:38

Dear Mr. von Haden;

I am looking into the Pyramyd Air restriction, so I would beg your patience on that end.

When using large scopes, or scopes that are HIGH relative to line of bore because the gun has to have space for a magazine, or because the barrel is centered in the air tank line, REQUIRES a droop mount. It's simple geometry and not a defect of the alignment or diameter of the barrel. Barrels can be "regulated" to POA with a given set of mounts and a scope, but if you change the mounts or the scope, the geometry changes and the barrel needs re-regulation. So, unless you are creating a definitive rig, I would not recommend that.
Using a UTG drooped base and cutting it in half will allow you to solve three problems:
1.- Use picatinny rings that have "extensions", so that you now can use longer scopes, or set compact scopes in the proper place for eye relief.
2.- Solve the short distance shooting geometry problem
3.- Keep the full use of the magazine with increased accessibility.

On your other comments; the Gen 3 is still some time off. I've been working on a Stormrider "Magnum", that already embodies many of your requests, except for the multiple barrel/caliber option, as to include that would complicate the barrel attachment system and put the gun in a bracket we are not interested in.
The Stormrider is in a class of its own: inexpensive, light, slender, and nimble; it provides the shooter with an inexpensive way of enjoying a rabbit hunt or an all day offhand plinking session. There is NO OTHER airgun in this class. Those that meet the price and shot count are large (Some VERY large) and unwieldy beasts.
We are aware that a "Magnum" version will make the gun a little heavier, but we will try to keep the "Character" of the enjoyable little carbine.
Since you mention it, I am sure you realize that the Outlaw already has most of the characteristics you want, of course, there is a price difference, and a weight, and a size difference. We do not want to "grow" the Stormrider into another Outlaw.
Last comment on the barrel aspects is that we are preparing an aftermarket barrel series, using high quality European barrels of a good OD and proper muzzle pieces.
Getting the user-friendly Altaros regulator to the maket took almost 18 months, so I do not know how long it will be till we can put the EU-barrels on the market, but they will come.
Another thing that is coming is a synthetic stock ;-)

About the Outlaw, Airguns of Arizona decided to be the exclusive "Importer of Record" in the same way that Pyramyd Air is the exclusive "Importer of Record" of the Stormrider series (that includes the Bandit, the Chaser, the Trailscout and the Stormrider).
As DIANA, we cannot decide who sells to whom and how, it is a question of one company selling to the other as their individual commercial interests dictate.

The Bandit is an interesting pistol, but once regulated the shot count drops dramatically at any reasonable outdoor pursuit level of energy.
At 4.5 -5 ft-lbs you can get between 45 and 60 shots, depending on the pellet, but at 12 ft-lbs, the shot count drops to only 20. Mainly a problem of the barrel length.
We MAY think of a special Pistol-FT edition of the Bandit, with a slightly longer air tank, the 15" of barrel allowed by the rules and using pretty much an improved version of the grips, where a buttstock COULD be added via an attachment plate. Or we would use the rear screw of the Bandit to affix a wire stock.
Lots of possibilities!

It's been a process, not only for the maker, but also for DIANA and for the market/users.
We are ALL learning in this, and I greatly appreciate your detailed and informed comments.
Thanks, keep well, and shoot straight!



HM

Reply
John Scott link
4/26/2019 01:41:23

Love your articles. You have convinced me to cancel my order for a FX Dream lite. Airgun, scope, and compressor around $2k. I am a little concerned about noise levels. I would like it very quiet. I have read that by going to the Altaros regulator and shooting at 12 fpe that it will be quiet. My question is if it is not as quiet as l would like, can l replace the LDC with an aftermarket supressor? Maybe a Donnyfil. The warranty is already void by adding the regulator, so it doesn’t matter. Also, what is your opinion about adding the 2nd barrel brace?
Final question. After reading the above, should l purchase the Gen 1 or Gen 2. Thanks, John in USA.

Reply
Hector Medina
4/26/2019 10:26:21

Dear Mr. Scott;

Thanks for your kind words. They are truly and greatly appreciated.

Gen 2 Stormrider barrels have a M10x1 thread. If the aftermarket regulators you are talking about are available with that option, it should be a relatively simple swap.
The Gen 2 moderators are MUCH more efficient than Gen 1. So you may want to consider that as a deciding factor.
The regulator, an optimized transfer port and the power level will also contribute to the "sounds of silence".
Depending on the usage, the second barrel brace may or may not be important. Only you can decide that.
In my own builds, that are mainly used for hunting and FT, I do not use the second barrel brace, as I use full size L-W barrels, unless the customer prefers to use the original SPA barrel and use the second barrel band. IMHO, choosing a L-W barrel is a much superior solution.
Once you have decided to do that, a reflex silencer and/or a harmonics tamer/tuner are also possibilities.

A note here: All airguns made at CCA carry a CCA warranty.
You don't have to pay $2k for a setup, but you won't be paying $350 either.
If you are interested in a CCA gun, drop me a Private message through the Contact page in this website.

Keep well and shoot straight!



HM

Reply
Kristian Nyblom
6/4/2019 04:57:22

Thank you for a very nice article about this fun gun. I just bought one and must admit being positively surprised. I will for sure get the Czech regulator, nice work!

I must also tell you how much I appreciate your way of writing and the answers to sometime a bit pointed comments!

World class!

Reply
Hector Medina
6/7/2019 18:51:00

Dear Kristian;

Thanks for your kind words. You made my day!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
SuperSwede
6/13/2019 04:58:16

Hello Hector,
Thanks for the article, very informative and useful!
I have had this rifle for a while, a ,22 still in original but now have I ordered the regulator and will go for some improvements.

The original manometer on my rifle needs to be replaced since it's seems to be unreliable compared to the one on my FX pump.
Do you know what threads I should look for when buying a new manometer? Are there different threads in the adapter?
And is there any brand or model you can recommend to get a good manometer?

Regards from Sweden.

Reply
Hector Medina
6/13/2019 12:31:23

Hello SS!

Manometers are M8X1.0 thread, 8.3 mm's long shank.

The manometer threads into a thimble that actually is much stronger than the manometer shank. IF your gun does NOT have thimble/sleeve, then it is NOT a DIANA.
CAVEAT EMPTOR

The best manometers are WIKA, but AFAIK they don't make the size needed and the manometer would cost you as much as the rifle, LOL!

And, SADLY, there is a WIKA "knock-off" made in China that tends to burst. So, buy ONLY from reputable sources.

Sorry that I cannot help you more.

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
SuperSwede
6/23/2019 03:33:53

Hello,
I've received the regulator and installed it, and it was easy!
But now when pressurized, the regulator bulb is forced backwards and all the force will be on the gauge adapter and the threads.
In my opinion this is a risk to damage of threads och even cracks in the adapter.
Googling around took me ta another regulator (HA) and their instruction is to remove the gauge or install a 10 mm spacers behind the gauge bulb if you want to keep the gauge installed.

Your opinion on this safety matter?

Best Regards

Reply
Hector Medina
6/25/2019 10:40:55

SS;

First of, it is not ALL the force.

Remember that the regulator is only subjected to the force resulting of the DIFFERENCE in pressures. So if one side is 230 BAR, and the other is 100 BAR, then the difference is 130 BAR, since the surface of the gauge block is not that big, the force is well within the shear resistance of the bronze gauge adapter.

And this is the worst case, most of the time, the block will be subject to even less force.

Now, there are PREVIOUS versions of the Artemis P900R that had the gauge directly screwed to the air tube, those are NOT safe if you want to use the regulator.

You should also be careful NOT to scratch or mar the inside of the air tube, because ANY groove, will act as a stress magnifier.
MOST OF ALL, DO NOT take out the gauge block. You don't need to and you risk creating an unsafe condition if you overtighten or undertighten the gauge adapter block.

To install the spacer you are talking about, you would have to remove the gauge block, so we are not recommending it, if you want, go ahead, but that is not the proper procedure and you will be going outside the limits of where we tested the device to be safe.

HTH




HM

Reply
Arvin
6/28/2019 12:29:58

Awesome writeup. Does the .22 have same parts as the .177? How can I empty the cylinder manually without going through 50 or more pellets? I have to take it apart but the cocking lever has snapped.

Reply
Hector Medina
6/28/2019 14:19:31

Hello Arvin

Yes, the .22" shares most parts with the 0.177", exceptions are Breechblock, Bolt, TP, Magazine and SS loading ramp.

I do a lot of work on Spring guns, so I have a long spring compressor. I remove the barrel, then use a long aluminum tube over the air tube of the SR, and compress an oak dowel into the valve stem, being that the spring compressor has a relatively slow thread, I can degas the guns quite gently and gradually, but still much faster than shooting it empty.
If you shoot it empty without a pellet, you will empty it faster.

Is the bolt handle that snapped, Gen 1 or Gen 2? Can you get the stub out? Can you post pictures?

TIA!




HM

Reply
Fran of the North
7/24/2019 20:25:27

Hector,

Thank you for your insights and efforts working with both Diana and Altaros to bring an entry level regulated and accurate PCP to market. This is an option that makes perfect sense for PCP newbs like me.

After looking at the options, and realizing that there is a TON of value in the Diana offering, I've got a regulated .177 Stormrider and 2nd manometer rigged rifle in the queue with my local retailer. That said, they aren't willing to offer advice on how to set the Barr with OEM transfer ports.

If the intent is to create an entry level regulated PCP, it may be instructive to help new PCP airgunners make some decisions on where they might start.

A potential follow up post might be an overview of setting the regulator depending upon the intended usage by caliber.

Finally, you mentioned that after-market premium barrels (L-W) may be available, but given the 18 month time frame for the regulator it might be some time before those are available. Do you think that they will be options at the retailers, or direct fom Diana or elsewhere?

Thanks for your work, Fran

Reply
Hector Medina
7/25/2019 09:55:01

Dear Fran;

Thanks for your kind words.

You don't tell me where you are located, or why you need to rely on a "local" retailer.

Here in the USA, Pyramyd Air is out of regulators, but they are programmed to arrive by September. So, not really 4 months out.
Elsewhere in the World, it MAY be more convenient to order directly from Altaros in Czechia. Again, it all depends on where you are located and what are the laws, taxes, and rules in your location.

The other thing that puzzles me is why your "local retailer" has not seen fit to look into the DIANA manual of the regulator. What you are asking is precisely one of the things I personally wrote into the manual. If you don't have the manual (there is a manual enclosed with EVERY regulator), you can download it here:

https://www.pyramydair.com/airgun-resources/manuals/Regulator-Diana-manual.pdf

You can see the table for setting the regulator pressure for different calibers and power needs/wants/allowances. FOR THE OEM Transfer Port.

That will cover 90% of the cases's starting points. You can fine tune and adjust as needed once you get more experience and are no longer a "newbie".

It is a decision I took, and I apologize if it causes problems, but there is a reason: To allow, at first, only ONE variable to change. As the shooter progresses, then he/she can get a feeling for what is happening, and begin to explore OTHER variables, like TP diameters, and if he?she REALLY wants to get into the nitty-gritty, then the GEOMETRIES.

If you have already read Parts II, III and IV, of the Stormrider entries, then perhaps you also need to look into Ken Wheeler's Guest Blog Post:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/ken-wheelers-adventure-with-the-diana-stormrider

It is a good account by someone who is not myself, and therefore, much closer to the "normal user".

About the barrels, any good gunsmith can lathe turn one for you.
Lothar Walther blanks go for US$123 and it takes about 1.5 hours of work for fitting (no bluing).

SO . . . You can have a working barrel for about $248.00

You can then choose to have it blued, or painted (Cerakote), or have any other finish.
Cold bluing would add about $75 more. Cerakote and hot bluing are considerably more expensive.
All these figures are at CCA's workshop, other gunsmiths may charge differently.
DIANA high performance barrels may become available in the future, but that is something we are still weighing; precisely because many gunsmiths CAN do it and it is hard to argue with the quality of the Lothar Walther blanks.

If you are really interested in a custom barrel, then drop me a line through the contact page:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html

Again, thanks for reading, don't miss the other parts of the Stormrider "Saga", and stay in touch, you can use the contact page just to say Hi now and then.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
Fran of the North
7/26/2019 16:35:50

Hector,

Thank you for your prompt and detailed response. I have looked at the manual and now realize that there was more knowledge in the answer I was given than I understood at the time I asked the retailer :) .

I'm hopeful that my regulator was set aside when I put down my payment so that I don't need to wait for stock to be replenished.

I'm anxious to get to know my new Diana, and take the next steps in this fascinating hobby.

Thank you again, Fran.

Reply
Pesting 007 link
12/6/2019 18:00:41

I purchased a SR in 177 on a waiting list from PA . Couldn’t be more happy with the rifle. Upgraded with the regulator and it’s a real hunting- pesting machine. The second barrel band was a mistake, turned it into a shotgun. Regged to 115 bar @ 800 fps 10.65 H&N. Will do dime groups @ 35 yds. Would be interested in TP mods when they come available. Thanks for the SR Scientology .

Reply
Hector Medina
12/9/2019 11:22:52

Glad you are happy with the rifle.
We're looking into the possibility of making the TP's available for the next generation of guns.

It will be some time still, so your immediate solution is to simply extract the TP and have some made in aluminum or brass by a local lathe turner, or one of the machining houses that make parts like Xometry, or similar.
Have them drill a 1 mm hole and use that as a pilot hole to enlarge will you get what you want/need.

HTH






HM

Reply
Thorbjørn Brodersen
1/7/2020 14:52:37

Hi Hector
I have a quick question for you. In the article you wrote you felt comfortable pumping the gun to 220 bar with the reg, in an answer to another question above you gave the example of pumping to 230bar.
I understand the logic that the only parts effected by the higher pressure is the cylinder and the regulator, the rest of the gun is subjected to the pressure the regulator is set to.
So my question is how high pressure can you realistically ad to the cylinder?

Reply
Hector Medina
1/7/2020 18:35:53

Thorbjorn;

The absolute Max is 230 BAR's.
Because the regulator will not be consistent above that pressure.

And you may induce permanent changes in the operation of the regulator if you go much higher than that.

It is not a mechanical / materials / design issue, it's simply respecting the limits of the regulator.

Hope this is clear.





HM

Reply
SpaceBus
12/4/2021 10:09:49

Hello, apologies for resurrecting such an old blog post.

I have an Altaros regulated Bandit that I've been fiddling with and soon to have a Lane Regulated Wood Stormrider/CR600W mashup. I actually managed to generate 17.5 FPE with a .177 Chaser rifle barrel, matching valve and barrel ports to TP diameter, the longer Stormrider valve cap (more plenum), and accidentally seating the valve a bit closer to the hammer. After fixing a leak from the valve and reassembling I'm stuck around 16.5 FPE for nine shots aired up to 220-ish bar (average 836 FPS 10.65 grain H&N Barracuda Match). I am thinking that making the hammer a bit heavier or shimming the face for a bit more length can yield a few more FPS, as would a currently unobtainable .177 Stormrider barrel.

Using a Stormrider tube modified to fit the Chaser grip/stock I was able to hit 20 FPE using a Huma plenum sleeve to cover the hole for 18 shots. I'm curious to see what the Lane regulator in a Stormrider tube is capable of. I'm also waiting for a .22 Chaser rifle barrel, and I'll keep using the Bandito as a test bed for mods. If I could find someone capable of putting the bandit trigger tabs on the longer tube, that would be ideal. Otherwise I have to rig a CP-1 trigger that has no safety and that's not idea.

The Stormrider will also get the port matching treatment. I'm hoping to reach 25+ FPE regulated, shot count is not as important to me as long range accuracy. I've seen some folks making nearly 30 FPE with Air Max branded versions, that would be the icing on the cake for such a lightweight easy to use rifle.

I also have a light spring for the Bandit/Chaser hybrid that will produce a ton of shots, but at about 10 FPE. I think the spring is from a CO2 Chaser/Air Bug, but it's nice to have. Eventually I want to cast some non-lead light weight alloy pellets in .22 and see if those can reach 500 FPS with the light spring.

Reply
Hector Medina
12/14/2021 12:09:45

Sorry for the delay in answering, but I have been real busy.
Those are GREAT results.

I have a few spare Stormrider tubes, if you want one, let me know through the contact page. No charge, just let us know what you do with them.

Personally, I trust a lot more the Altaros regulators than the HUMA or the Lane ones. Just based on previous experiences. But YMMV.

The safety is a fairly simple affair. If you can manage to drill a hole in the trigger blade you are using, you will have an operable safety. in reality, the ONLY safety that truly works is the one in the middle of your ears.

;-)

IF you ever decide to cast some non-lead slugs/pellets be aware that you need industrially PURE tin (that means 99.9% pure) to get a usable Brinell Hardness. Otherwise the pellets/slugs will not obturate.

Thanks for the post, really interesting ideas and results.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

Reply
AG72
1/25/2022 15:13:10

Hello Hector (and others), i have a pr900w .22 with an Altaros regulator set at 80bar, and using the tp that came with the regulator, think it's 3,5mm, i am trying to get many efficience shots without rebuild or manufacture any new parts cause that is beyond my skills... I will only use this gun for plinking well within 50m, maybe some 25m papertargets, anyway as said i use the 3,5mm tp and reg set at 80bar, i have changed the hammerspring to one a little softer and it's 70mm long, from a 200bar fill down to 80bar i get 100 shots with jsb 13.43gr at 531-564 fps, I would like the spread to be a bit tighter, should i try a bit longer hammerspring? Or a stiffer valve spring or a washer with the original valve spring? Or do you have another simple solution? Thank you so much!

Reply
Hector Medina
1/25/2022 15:31:59

You are using an extremely heavy pellet. So, you are not relying on the restriction of the transfer port to do the curve flattening.
It is normal then to see some MV variance.

I would step the regulator up to about 90-95 BAR's and experiment a little there.

It takes about 70 pumps to re-fill the Stormrider tank, so I think that you are doing very well getting 100 shots.
Personally, I would trade a few shots for better uniformity, if that is the pellet you want to use.

The last factor is that the QC of the barrels in the SPA and the DIANA airguns are slightly different.
I would try getting a DIANA barrel and see what happens.

Keep us posted!






HM

Reply
AG72
1/28/2022 07:03:59

Thanks for the reply Hector, but a 13.43gr pellet in 22 cal isn´t very heavy, there is a jsb that weighs 33gr in 22...

Hector Medina
1/28/2022 11:13:49

AG72.-
Since this article is dedicated to the 0.177" version, I thought you were shooting a 0.177" cal gun.
13.4 in 0.177" is a heavy pellet.

If you are interested in the 0.22 version, read this:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/exploring-the-diana-stormrider-part-3-the-mid-power-region-800-fps-and-above-in-0177-and-20-ft-lbs-022-under-real-world-conditions-at-the-2018-pyramyd-air-cup

Of course we were not looking for efficiency, but effectiveness, so the goals diverge a little.

You have probably changed the valve hammer spring configuration enough to qualify it as a free-flight hammer, and so you are at the edge of the efficiency possibilities.

100 shots in 0.22" cal using the Exact JUmbo Express is indeed an extremely good result.

Since you are using an SPA gun and not a DIANA, look into the fill manometer.
DIANA Stormriders can be charged to 230 BAR's but I do not know if SPA guns have the same limit.
REMEMBER operating pressure is determined as 1/4 of the yield test pressure, so testing to 920 BAR's is not the same requirement of material as testing to 800 BAR's.
What is safe in a DIANA airgun MAY NOT be in a run of the mill SPA.
So, look into your manometer, and make sure your manometer is calibrated. No one can take responsibility for things they cannot control.
Be careful and be safe.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

Reply
AG72
1/28/2022 13:17:05

Thank you sir i will read it! And i will not fill to more than 200 bar

Reply
dell power adapter link
8/28/2023 01:32:56

Continue the nice function, We study couple of articles about this web site as well as I believe that the internet weblog is actually actual fascinating and it has obtained arenas associated with wonderful info.

Reply
Darwin wilde
9/29/2024 11:07:28

As a new owner of a Stormrider 2, your posts and Q and A an are a treasure trove of information. My first PCP at age 80, I was quick to order a compressor after attempting my first fill with a hand pump. I polished the sear and hammer and using longer screws for adjustments have a trigger that feels good to me. Altaros regulator on order. Haven’t had so much fun in a longtime. Thanks again.

Reply
Hector Medina
9/29/2024 11:43:15

Dear Mr. Wilde;

Thank YOU for reading the articles.

The Stormrider has been a wonderful success for many.
It has allowed small framed persons to shoot competitively
It has allowed youngsters (10 YO's) to experience what a precision airgun can do and so challenge their own marksmanship skills. Hopefully spurring a lifelong pursuit in the shooting sports.

In many ways, it set the bar for other PCP's to come into the market, though, to ME, it is still in a class of its own when you take into account the size and weight with the power and accuracy that the gun can deliver.

I am very happy to see that it was a good experience for you too.

Thanks for reading our old articles!

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Hector Medina

    2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
    2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
    2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
    2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
    2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
    2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
    2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
    2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
    2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
    2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
    2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
    2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
    2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
    2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF 
    2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
    2022 WFTC's Italy
    2nd Place Veteran Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa Member TEAM USA 1st place Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa
    2nd Place Veteran Springers

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