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Hector's Airgun Blog

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Mandarins to Oranges

5/26/2020

9 Comments

 
INTRODUCTION

Most of you will know me as a "Science guy" and, yes, I guess I am more than a common NERD.

But life and experience have taught me that there is a lot of worthwhile knowledge to be gained from just listening to the users. Especially if the users are experienced and UNCOMMON
 persons, in the sense of having been endowed with more than a passing grade of "COMMON SENSE".

When I was much younger, my GrandMa used to tell me that the least common of senses was the common sense. After almost 64 years I have come to agree wholeheartedly with that.

Bill and I met by "accident" in one of the fora, we both love airguns, and German Airguns more precisely; and I cannot but see a future me (result of a strongly driven and purposeful youth with lots of physicality to it) in him.
One day my body will present the "bills" for all those strenuous activities. 
And, while growing old is mandatory, it's growing up what I plan on keeping "optional"  ;-)
​
To keep a capacity of wonderment, and the love of life, is what will make the next decade (or two), what it is supposed to be.

And so, in that spirit, I present you with a notable person, in the sense that he makes a lot of sense.

Oh!, and what does the title mean? Well it's sort of a private joke because while discussing the idea of this Blog entry, Bill asked me (and rightfully so), "Won't we be comparing apples to oranges here?"
My response was that there were sufficient characteristics shared by BOTH guns (HW30 and AM03)  to think more about a comparison between Mandarins and Oranges: about the same, just slightly different size, zest and flavour.

¿Isn't that what life is all about?
​
;-)

I yield the floor to Bill:

Guest Blog by Bill Rickvalsky

Picture
Bill with the two guns he was charged of comparing: in his left hand, an HW30, in his right a modified DIANA Mauser AM03
Let me begin with a little background information. A few weeks ago I was involved in a discussion on a web forum about the possible acquisition of another air rifle. I had not too long ago acquired a Weihrauch HW30S as an addition to my Diana Model 34. The reason for that purchase was because the cocking effort of the Diana 34 had become rather fatiguing. The HW30S was a considerable relief in that regard. But then I began investigating the purchase of another rifle that might provide power similar to the Diana 34 but not be as difficult for me to cock.

The reason the cocking effort is an issue for me is that I am in my 70's and have a chronic health condition that occasionally affects my muscle strength. But I thoroughly enjoy my shooting and regularly have somewhat lengthy shooting sessions. The HW30S allowed me to do this without wearing myself out.

As a result of that forum discussion I was offered an opportunity by Hector to compare my HW30S to a Diana AM03 Mauser that had been modified with people in just my situation in mind, older folks with health issues. The AM03 started life as an NTec gas piston rifle. It now has a steel spring operating an anti bounce piston (ABP). The rifle is putting out 13 fpe and has a cocking force of 23 pounds. My objective was to report on the perceived cocking force and the shooting characteristics of this rifle and the HW30S.
Picture
From top to bottom: DIANA Mauser AM03; DIANA 34; HW30S
​After receiving the AM03 and getting it set up to shoot everything went very smoothly and the rifle fit me well just as received. My quick impressions from the first shooting sessions were very favorable. The AM03 is heavy. The all up weight is 9 lbs. 11 oz. which is heavier than my Diana 34 at 9 lbs. exactly. My HW30S weighs in at 6 lbs. 12 oz. Both rifles are scoped. The cocking effort of the AM03 was perceptibly heavier than the HW30S but not by a significant amount. The difference between the two would not make me choose one over the other just based upon the work involved in cocking. My Diana 34 is significantly more work. The trigger on the AM03, which I understand is an Ntec T06, is very light and has a clean, crisp break. A very nice trigger so I can't blame my sometimes poor shooting on the trigger.
Picture
Do any of you think this is poor shooting? Heck, No! It's good shooting in anybody's books.
As I was able to get in more shooting sessions I was paying particular attention to the shot cycle characteristics. The AM03 seems to shoot at an equivalent power level to my Diana 34 although my chronograph is not operational I had previously determined my Diana 34 put out about 13 fpe.  But the shot cycle characteristics were very different. The AM03 has a sharper, crisper shot cycle than either the HW30S or my Diana 34.  By that I do not mean the shot cycle is harsher. It just seems quicker and more stable. While the HW30S has a softer shot cycle it is only about a 6.5 fpe rifle. My impression after several shooting sessions was that the AM03 is less hold sensitive than my Diana 34 and is almost on the same level as the HW30S in that regard.

A couple of the shooting sessions I had were fairly lengthy with over 200 pellets down range. On those occasions the cocking effort of the AM03 and HW30S became an obvious advantage for me. I believe I could shoot either of those rifles all day long. I eventually would lay the Diana 34 aside while shooting the other two. I know there are people who do not find the Diana 34 difficult to cock. But it apparently crosses a threshold of work for me. I like the rifle and can shoot it for a while but there are limits. 

One side comment I would like to make here is about the length of the cocking arm (barrel) and how it affects this. While many people say the longer barrel provides more leverage it also requires a longer reach, particularly when sitting. When reaching up to the end of the barrel my arm is fully extended and then has to swing out and down while still fully extended until more than half way through the cocking  cycle. This actually is as much of a disadvantage as it is an advantage. I find it easier to not reach all the way to the end of the barrel.

Someone else's technique may give different results in this regard.

Picture
The AM03 seems a little louder from behind the gun than either of the other two rifles. It is not very much at all and may be related to the crisper shot cycle. But I am fortunate in being able to shoot without any concern for the noise levels of any of these rifles as none of them is really offensive in my rural neighborhood. And just as a check I asked my son to listen to them from about 20 yards away to the side. He felt that the Diana 34 and the AM03 were about the same. The HW30S as expected is quieter.

I would love to have a hybrid of the AM03 and the HW30S. I like the extra reach of the AM03 without paying a significant price in cocking effort. The AM03 that I am shooting is heavy, especially for occasional offhand shooting. But there are times I wish the HW30S had just a little more weight for offhand shooting. This light, short rifle sometimes seems a little twitchy without a rest of some sort. It would also be nice to have the barrel on the AM03 be two or three inches shorter. For me anyway the shorter overall length would balance better.

Picture
I would like to thank Hector for this opportunity to participate in this comparison and to possibly contribute slightly to upcoming design decisions. And I told him several times how much I love the set up on the trigger in this AM03. It is an absolute pleasure to shoot. 

I hope everyone learns a little something from this old guy's comments. I know there are others like me out there who may have the same concerns. 

Bill Rickvalsky

​

N.E. I would like to finish this entry by thanking Bill for his time and effort.

And yes,I learned things that we expect to put in place with the new EMS line at DIANA.

The 34 EMS will allow users to "tailor" the gun in such a way as to suit THEM.

Particularly in Bill's case, I am already envisioning a 34 EMS with the NTec trigger, a lightweight ABP unit inside the OEM piston, a shorter barrel, and a Carbon Fiber moderator/Harmonics Tuner in place. The short barrel will save 1 full pound of weight, the Carbon Fiber mod/HT will save another ¼ lb, and a beech stock will also save another ¼ lb, so, all in all, with a Traditions lightweight scope in small ZR Mounts, we could be looking at a 7 to 7¼ lbs all up rifle still capable of delivering 12 ft-lbs at the muzzle with a bit over 25# peak cocking force.

Now, THAT would be an interesting little gun, LOL!


Keep well and shoot straight!





​HM
9 Comments
Yogi
5/28/2020 21:10:42

Bill,

Great write up. I certainly like the Compact barrel on my N-tec 340. Why didn't Hector put one on the AM03 for you?
If you are going to post a target, please mention which gun and what distance. In the pictures of you at the bench shooting, you do not have your hand under the fore end. Did you try this shooting style? Would it have effected accuracy?
Lastly, without knowing what your health issues are, wouldn't you be better off with a PCP? I am assuming that you have "good days and not so good days"?
Thanks again for your report! I sure hope that Hector let you keep the AM03 for all your hard work! I am very much looking forward to the D34 EMS also.

Stay safe, stay sane, and beware the second wave,

-Yogi

Reply
Bill_in_TR
6/3/2020 12:00:09

Yogi,

That particular group was shot when I first received the rifle and was zeroing it in. It was literally the first or second group at only ten meters. I eventually shot the gun out to 35 yards. I tried a number of shooting positions and yes a gentle touch under the forearm helps.

My health issue is a chronic condition which causes muscle weakness. Particularly in the upper arm and shoulder.

Don't like PCP's.

Reply
RidgeRunner
6/14/2020 06:14:09

Bill,

Nice little write up there. Perhaps you should try an HW50. It is just a little bigger than the HW30 and has a little more umph to it. It might be just what you are looking for.

Reply
Bill Rickvalsky
6/14/2020 08:02:41

RidgeRunner,

That HW50 is definitely on my short list for my next rifle. Right now I am holding off a bit to see what the 34 EMS looks like when it finally becomes available. I am afraid that it might turn out to be something that needs work done to get it to the level I want. We will see. But I definitely have looked at the HW50.

Reply
Luftgewehrschütze
4/7/2021 14:18:03

Very intriguing custom rifle. I do wish you had included the exact parts and sources so we could build one ourselves if so inclined.

I also have some health issues that force me to find an easy cocking air rifle and while the HW30S is the obvious choice, I would like a little more power. The HW50S would be perfect if the cocking effort was really the advertised 24 pounds, but I understand it is closer to 35 pounds.
My solution is to find a Diana 34 T06 and drop in a 12 FPE spring kit, which should provide a similar result to the custom Mauser described here. The trouble is finding a used Diana 34 T06. I've noticed this is an issue with all German airguns: once they have one most people don't ever want to sell it!

Reply
Hector Medina
4/7/2021 16:04:27

Dear LGS;

Thanks for reading and for your kind words.

If you liked this entry, then you NEED to read the "Epilogue" to this story:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-short-note-on-tuning-the-diana-280

AND, if you are interested in the DIANA 280 there described, drop me a line, I can make one for you in either caliber.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply
Bill Rickvalsky
4/8/2021 08:20:08

LGS,

The Diana 280 that Hector describes in that link is mine. I have been very happy with that rifle. It is perfect for me and the shooting I do which is mostly back yard anywhere from 10 to 35 yards. It is very smooth cocking with a firm, positive lockup. The effort is slightly more than an HW30S I have but it is very manageable for me. The shot cycle is smooth and fairly quiet with no twang whatsoever. My gun shoots .177 7.87 grain pellets at approximately 10.75 fpe. The weight and balance feels good to me and I wouldn't hesitate to take it in the woods.

If you think you're interested contact Hector. I am sure he can tweak it to your desires.

Reply
Connor R link
6/23/2022 12:32:57

Grreat blog you have

Reply
Hector Medina
6/23/2022 13:57:01

Thanks Connor!

If you are interested in this "type" of airgun, do read the subsequent 2 entries:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-short-note-on-tuning-the-diana-280

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-gunsmiths-tune-part-24-12-ft-lbs-walther-lgv

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-gunsmiths-tune-part-24-12-ft-lbs-walther-lgv

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-430l-a-semi-custom-powerplant-part-1

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-gunsmiths-tune-parts-3-4-making-the-diana-430-all-it-can-be

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/simple-field-target-the-north-carolina-classic-2021

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/simple-field-target-maryland-state-champs-2021

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/simple-field-target-3-ftrpa-july-18th-2021

Thanks for reading!




HM

Reply



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    Hector Medina

    2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
    2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
    2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
    2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
    2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
    2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
    2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
    2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
    2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
    2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
    2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
    2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
    2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
    2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF 
    2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
    2022 WFTC's Italy
    2nd Place Veteran Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa Member TEAM USA 1st place Springers
    2023 WFTC's South Africa
    2nd Place Veteran Springers

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