The Walther LGV, a second look

12/24/2015

About a year ago (Dec. 3, 2014 to be exact), I posted the first entry about the Walther "Sport" family of guns..

It took me a year to get back to these fine guns by request of a good friend of mine.

In the interim, we had imported the 12 ft-lbs kits directly from Germany, and results had been good with the LGU. But this friend wanted to have a "Matching Pair" of sub-12 Ft-Lbs guns. One built on an LGV, one on the LGU.

And so started our Odyssey.

I have posted enough info on tuning the LGU before, but I will try to outline those things that are different and important with the LGV.

We start with a run of the mill 12 ft-lbs kit from Walther and the corresponding adjustable trigger:

On the left, the 12 ft-lbs "Service Kit", on the right, the "Match Abzug"

Careful measurement of all the components told us that we WOULD have to change the guide (the LGV guide is slightly thick for the 12 ft-lbs spring). And given the fact that the pistons weigh the same and we had no way (no SENSIBLE way, that is) of modifying the transfer port, we knew there would be problems, but a fore-warned ambush should kill no soldiers, so we forged head with some plans in mind.
There is no way of testing the accuracy of a gun without a proper sighting system, so a UTG drooped rail was machined to fit:

An RWS 3-12X50 scope we routinely use for tests was installed and we now could do some testing.
At 10 meters and full power, the gun was not keeping 10 shots inside the 6 meter chicken (rightmost group):

And we sort of expected that. The JSB's are not often the preferred pellet of the Walthers.
We sifted through our correspondence and found a cryptical allusion to a 'Hatsan Air Stripper' in one of my good friend Mark Bouchard's Emails.
And so I installed one of those "muzzle brakes" and proceeded to tune the center cone for the best possible group.
You can see how the group tightened from right to left.
After I was done, the gun was keeping all shots to the chicken's head. Not bad for factory part that was not even produced by the rifle maker! Thanks Mark!
And then we proceeded with the power conversion.
The pistons were extracted and compared:

On top, the FP piston, on the bottom, the 12 ft-lbs one.

Essentially, both pistons are identical in all aspects, EXCEPT construction. The 'new' pistons are a simplified construction version of the originals. Looking at the silver lining, our worries about the transfer port were abated a little.

Then we measured and compared the springs:

On the top, the 12 ft-lbs spring, on the bottom, the FP one. Do note the plastic TopHat.
There seemed to be little difference between one and the other. Not enough to make it develop 1.5 ft-lbs less.
Still, we decided to test the spring as it was delivered by Walther.
And sure enough we found a few things we did not like:
Power was high, about 13 ft-lbs which would make this illegal for FT, and the usual piston bounce-back and vibrations were there.
With the experience of the prior LGU tunes, we decided to cut off one full coil of the spring and install a composite TopHat that fit VERY tightly in the piston:

It is important to note that to make the spring "grab" the TopHat, the diameter of the foremost 2 turns had to be reduced. So, to preserve that, the cutting of the spring took place at the REAR.
When cutting a spring, you need to forge and square the ends, otherwise ALL springs will kink and start giving problems. So, we forged and squared the spring's rear end.
Of course, this required the performance of the "stand-up" test.

An airgun mainspring must ALWAYS be straight and square enough to stand up straight on its own. If it is not, then use a wheel, or re-forge the end. No sense in putting extra work on the guide by starting with a cocked up spring's rear end.
A note here to support the use of the OEM greases. Walther provides two different greases: A larger jar of 'Piston Grease' (KolbenFett), and a smaller jar of 'Spring Grease' (FederFett):

Both greases are notably temperature stable and the flash point of both is extremely high.
The proportion tells you that Walther EXPECTS you to use 3 times more grease for the piston than for the spring. IF (BIG IF) the springs last about 15,000 rounds, then that means that you are expected to break open and make sure your piston is well lubricated every 5,000 rounds.
Maybe I should start working on an ORing'ed piston for these guns, but we'll se how it goes; for most people, 5,000 rounds is about a year's worth of shooting. So an ORing piston may not be completely warranted.

Gone are now the piston bounce and the vibrations of a loose system. The gun is consistent and uniform in all its behaviors, a definitely likable airgun.

After the trigger swap, the gun is now shooting reasonably well and as soon as possible, we'll be testing it at distance.

If the short range groups hold, it will, indeed, be a sweet shooter!

If I could have a Christmas wish granted, all shooters would heed Walther's admonition:

ROFL!

Keep well, shoot straight, and Merry Christmas to ALL!

HM

17 Comments

Urs Lackner

7/7/2016 00:30:15

I liked your solution with the Hatsan Air Stripper. When I tried to remove the muzzle weight on my LGV it would not want to come off. I had the threaded barrel nut removed and also the little set screw in the muzzle weight, still it does not move. Is it possibly bonded to the barrel. What does it take to remove it. I appreciate all your help with this.

Hector Medina

7/7/2016 09:31:17

Hello Urs!

As far as I know, it is E-Poxied.

If you have one of the Ultra models that has a somewhat squarish muzzle pieces, you could try to make an "adapter" of sorts. Just a washer that fills the void when the Hatsan Air Stripper is installed.

You could also try to machine the Hatsan piece to Match (this may shorten the thread too much, so I would measure REAL carefully before doing anything).

If you REALLY want to remove the aluminum piece (which is, in general a beneficial weight and the reason why it is there in the more expensive models), you have two choices:

a) if you have a large freezer, or live in a country with cold winters when you can do this: remove the barrel, remove all screws in the muzzle piece and freeze the barrel with the muzzle piece overnight. Then next morning, with a heat gun and keeping the steel as cold as you can (cold packs applied to the barrel will help you), heat the aluminum muzzle piece and twist it out.

b) Machine the muzzle piece out. It is a drastic measure, but at times, drastic problems call for drastic measures.

Sorry that I do not know if there is an easier solution to this.

Let us know how you dealt with it.

Keep well and shoot straight!

Héctor

Malcolm lockhart

8/18/2017 12:19:30

Can you recommend a Titan Spring for a 1.77 Walther lgv 12ftlb

Hector Medina

8/18/2017 12:59:43

Malcolm,

I have used, and am using the Titan # 10

It DOES require you machine a special guide for it, as the ID and OD are larger than the OEM one.
It will also yield (with a properly fit guide) between 12 and 14 ft-lbs (depending on the material) and you will need to cut it.\

A TIGHT fitting Top Hat is essential if you want to prevent the upward jump these guns have that stems from the piston bounce.

HTH and keep us posted on what you do and what results you get!

Héctor Medina

Calin Brabandt

10/1/2017 16:20:04

Hi Héctor,

I have a US spec LGV Master in .177 with a tuning trigger installed and I'd like to duplicate your efforts here (which I've thought about doing ever since I bought the gun new). I hope you can answer a few questions for me, because I am very confused about the parts in the various LGV SKUs.

I'm looking at my Umarex parts sheet and exploded diagram for the part numbers used in the 7.5 J, 10 J, 16 J, and 21 J versions. According to the parts list, the 21 J and 16 J guns share the same top hat and spring guide parts. This previously led me to believe that all I need is the 16 J spring. On the other hand, you found that the original full power guide diameter was too large to fit a 16 J spring. Accordingly, I also assume that original top hat would not fit the 16 J spring for the same reason.

I have a lathe and could turn my parts down or buy the correct ones from Umarex, if I knew for sure what is correct.

It sounds like I could also use a Titan #10?, if I machine my own guide and top hat parts, (I have a lathe and also 3D printer that prints nylon very well), but will still need to cut it. Is the Titan a better choice than the Walther OEM 16 J spring?

I assume that in order to "forge" the end of a cut spring, one must heat it. Doesn't that require re-heat treating the spring? Maybe the 16 J OEM spring will "settle down" after a few thousand rounds and I should not bother to cut it. My full power spring no longer makes 21 J like it did when it was new (and it's not due to maintenance neglect). I don't shoot FT so all I really care about is an accurate small game and varmint gun.

From the parts sheet:

600.200.22.1--guide 7.5 J, 10 J
600.200.38.1--guide 16 J, 21 J

600.400.14.1--top hat 7.5 J, 16 J, 21 J
600.403.01.1--top hat 10 J

600.400.13.1--spring 7.5 J, 10 J
600.401.13.1--spring 16 J
600.402.13.1--spring 21 J

Though not relevant to my 21 J >> 16 J conversion, it appears that the 7.5 J and 10 J use the same spring but different top hats so the 10 J top hat must supply additional spring preload compared to the 7.5 J version.

I also noticed that all guns except the 21 J use the same receiver tube. I assume that the difference is the transfer port that you mentioned.

I'd sure appreciate any advice before I order parts.

Thanks so much for this post,

-Cal

Hector Medina

10/2/2017 10:59:51

Cal;

In all honesty, you may be overthinking the project.

a) you are not constrained by any rule to a specific power level
b) you are not bothered by low power or high power, as long as the gun gets the job done (and quite frankly, that depends more on you than on the gun), you're OK with whatever power output the gun gets.
c) you have a lathe

So . . . this is what I would do in your shoes:

1) get a Titan #10 spring, relieve both ends and measure them as accurately as you can.
2) machine a guide out of moly-infused nylon that is tight but just slide tight. You do NOT want the guide to need substantial force to make the spring enter completely into the guide.
3) machine a top hat with an OD at the head that is tight to the ID of the piston at the end. You may need to make an aluminum gauge to find out exactly what this diameter is. The tophat smaller OD should be REAL TIGHT (substantial force) to enter into the spring.
4) you do not need to bother with forging and squaring because if the gun makes 13, or 14 or 15 ft-lbs you're good. You do need to make sure that the spring passes the "stand-up test" and then polish the guide end of the spring with a sander making sure that you do NOT change the squareness of the spring's face.
4) thoroughly clean/degrease EVERYTHING and lube with Ultimox for the assembly

Put everything together and test.

Unless you find the gun has too much power for good shot control, just leave it as it is.

Let me know how you're coming along.

HM

Calin Brabandt

10/2/2017 20:46:18

Oh...and thanks for the Hatsan Air Stripper tip. I'll order one. My LGV is the plain muzzle (threaded only) Master model. If nothing else, the additional muzzle weight might be of some benefit too, but it will be fun to see if tuning the device improves my LGV's accuracy too.

Calin Brabandt

10/2/2017 20:40:10

Hi Héctor,

Thanks so much for your very helpful reply. What is the advantage of the Titan #10 spring over the Walther 16 J spring? Last I checked with Umarex, the Walther factory spring is actually cheaper than the Titan or the Maccari (when the Maccari was available). Either way, I'm planning to take your advice and just turn my own top hat and guide on my lathe and not have to worry about a poor fit of any off the shelf parts.

You are right; I don't care about power--other than perhaps the limitation in approaching typical 10 m gun power levels, They are very accurate guns but unsuitably low power for hunting or pest control. On the other hand, I think my full power LGV's accuracy is somewhat burdened by recoil (perhaps like any sporting springer) but I can easily live with lower power. Or maybe I'm burdened by the recoil, but so is any springer fan, to some degree. ;) The 12 ft-lb LGVs seem to be reported as more accurate than the full power .177 guns. Tom Gaylord tested the .22 and .177 LGVs. He said the .22 shot one of the best 50-yard 10-shot groups he'd ever shot with a breakbarrel air rifle. When I asked him about swapping out my .177 spring for the lighter one in the .22, he told me it would probably make my gun more accurate. That was about three years ago at SHOT show and I'm finally getting around to doing it.

Hector Medina

10/3/2017 14:36:30

Cal,

The use of a tight tophat and a maxxed out spring (OD) is geared towards making the shot cycle smooth, eliminating the vertical jump that these guns exhibit, and making the tune more stable over time.

IF the gun, as initially setup is creating shot cycle problems by becoming hard to tame, then you can always cut the spring, but once a spring is fatigued, then you need to re-tune your gun and it's like starting all over again.

In the guns I have installed Titan springs, I've had reports of 20 to 30,000 shots before any difference is noticeable.

I have been testing an anti-bounce piston in my own LGV, and it is indeed a better mousetrap :

http://hardairmagazine.com/reviews/sightron-sih412x40ftmoa-riflescope/

Problem is that making those pistons has proven to be hideously expensive, to give you an idea, the piston ends up being as costly as the gun itself.
But, with very little spring energy and cocking effort, the rifle yields 12 ft-lbs.
Perhaps I will try a full power spring there and see what happens, LOL!
Anyway, keep us posted.

Calin Brabandt

10/4/2017 12:25:58

Somehow I missed that article in Hard Air. Very interesting. Thanks!

Even though the LGV shot cycle is quite smooth, I think there's improvement to be had from a lighter spring. My goal is sub 1" 10-shot groups at 50 yards. I'm just a bit over 1" now and I can easily shoot under 1" with non-springers. Like I said, the LGV is very close and a good candidate for my goal. Thanks for your report of the Titan spring's performance. Sounds good!

-Cal

Calin Brabandt

3/24/2018 03:29:43

It's been a long winter again, Hector, so I have done very little with my LGV so far, but here's my update (and perhaps good news) anyway.

My LGV has calmed down with age. It's only making 12.8 ft*lb with 8.4 gr. Air Arms 4.51mm field pellets (which are a bit slower than 4.52 Exact pellets but it is significantly less energy / velocity than when the gun was new).

Taking your lead, I decided to install a Hatsan air stripper before doing anything else, but I had to part-off quite a bit of the air stripper's length to even get to 1-1/2 caliber (.177) minimum jump gap. My goal is 1" 10-shot groups at 50 yards and I think the aging spring along with the new air stripper might get me there. My other goal is to successfully complete Bob Sterne's "Prove It" challenge!

http://airgunguild.com/ask-bob/5-shots-in-a-dime-challenge/msg4639/#msg4639

Here's my reply on Bob's thread about making one of his air stripper alignment tools:

http://airgunguild.com/pcp-c02-and-helium-powered-airguns/aligning-a-hatsan-air-stripper/msg20074/#msg20074

Even if I realize the above goals, I'll need a new spring eventually and will keep you up to date how I proceed.

Thanks!

-Cal

Hector Medina

3/24/2018 08:03:42

That's great progress, Calin!

The 5 dimes "Prove it" challenge is indeed a tall order. I probably could not do it with the weather we have here in Maryland (it is always windy). But it is indeed an interesting proposal.

As a shooting instructor and coach of many years, I have learned that most of what shooters remember are the good shots. Whether it is a group, or a single shot. We tend to forget our misses and our botched up groups. It's human nature. So, when I hear someone say "I can shoot dime sized groups at 50 yards all day long" I simply move on. LOL! I have better things to do in life than worry about mythmaniacs. ;-)

If you do try the challenge, then by all means, give it your best and if you succeed, congrats! It is just not my piece of cake.

I would find a lot more interesting to see a challenge that was NOT BR oriented, as I have been always a proponent and defendant of Practical Riflery. And that excludes any BR oriented effort.

Where I am going to is to say that one of the attractions of the LGV is that it is an eminently shootable, practical, field, rifle. It shines where other breakbarrels struggle. Pity that the market did not recognize that and now we are restricted to ONE model of the LGV.
And even that, particularly expensive, model may also go.

So, cherish your gun and enjoy it.

On the subject of springs, you may find that the Titan #1 suitably cut down and guided works better than the #10 for ME's at, or slightly above 12 ft-lbs. Full length it yields a lot more, but properly cut, forged, squared and polished it has proven to be a very interesting spring.

HTH

Keep well and shoot straight!

HM

Calin Brabandt

3/24/2018 13:22:42

Thanks for your reply once again, Hector. And thanks for the additional information about the Titan #1 too!

Shooting from a rest isn't exactly my cup of tea either, except that once I can shoot mostly 1" 10-shot groups at 50 yards (or Bob's Challenge, which might prove to be too much of a stretch for me too) with an air gun and pellet combination, I know that the gun is capable of far more than I in field shooting positions (standing, sitting, and even prone). Accuracy is far more fickle with springers than any other type of arm, as you well know, however. A cheap Savage 17 HMR right out of the box brings a shooter far less accuracy grief from day to day (but perhaps less satisfaction too)!

I can find no more LGVs that I'd want to buy. I really like my Master model (wood stock with the bare threaded muzzle). Even though the LGU has a muzzle weight, I'm thinking about buying one in .22 before supplies dry up too, as you warn. They can still be found at good prices.

Do you happen to know if the only difference between the "Pro" (European) model and the regular US model is the more curved and adjustable butt pad? Actually, I think I might prefer the non-adjustable and flatter butt stock end, which one can more easily "adjust" simply by sliding it up and down on one's shoulder. With a typical springer, the buttstock should only be lightly touching the shoulder anyway!

On the other hand, it just occurred to me that the more deeply dished and adjustable butt stock might be able to support the butt end of a muzzle-heavy support hand position (butt end needs some down force) with lighter aft pressing contact. I would have to try it to know for sure, I guess (and then swap in a flat pad, if I don't like the Pro version).

Again, thanks for your thoughts and expertise.

Calin Brabandt

3/24/2018 14:00:40

Re: BR and cups of tea: I hope you don't mind but I just wanted to add (and plug) the Appleseed program here, because it's the opposite of BR (but also not an air gun program and most shooters use 22LR rimfire). I hope you don't mind the mention and plug here. All positions are shot with a sling and the goal is to shoot "Expert" on a scaled-down Army Qualification Test (AQT) and earn a "Riflleman" patch. My wife and I both qualified for our patches years ago. Of course learning the "6 steps to taking the shot" is completely transferable to air-gunning too. It's great fun and challenging and very much my cup of tea!

I might try Field Target someday too. So many (shooting sports) things to do and so little time!

www.appleseedinfo.org

Hector Medina

3/25/2018 12:01:49

Good ideas, Calin!

One thing you might try is a Morgan Adjustable pad. Get one base and two different pads, the "shotgun" model that is flat, and the "Curved" model that has more depth to it. Test them both and see what works better for you.

No problem with Project Appleseed. It looks interesting, I may have a go at it, but would have to understand better the teaching courses of fire. 25 yards may be a good starting point, but I would like to go through the process with one of my airguns. If shooting then took off to 50 yards, then I would like to take a different airgun. If shooting then progressed to 100 yards, then I would choose a different gun still.

At current performance levels, apart from terminal energy, out to 100 yards some airguns can really keep up with the RF's.

Keep well and keep us posted.

HM

Calin Brabandt

3/25/2018 14:41:57

I was unfamiliar with the Morgan Adjustable pad but I just went to their website and I really likeed what I saw. Thanks for the tip. If I get an LGU, I think I'll pass on ordering the "Pro" from Europe and buy the last remaining LGU model in .22 from a U.S. dealer that's offered at a lower price and I'll just install a Morgan on it. It seems like the LGUs are following the LGV's and availability of the various models is drying-up too.

Most Appleseed events are 25 meters but sometimes they include brief forays out to 100 meters, if the range permits the distance. The Army Qualification Test (AQT) targets are all scaled down in size to the distance. There are "advanced" events at greater range for shooters that have attended previously (but not necessarily "earned" their Rifleman patch).

The event is for firearms and most people shoot rimfire, because 400 rounds / weekend is typical and centerfire ammo is too expensive for most people. However, I think it would be interesting to shoot Appleseed with an airgun and perhaps you can arrange with event organizers to do so. There is a slow fire prone course of fire at Appleseed, but most courses of fire are designed to be shot at a "rifleman's rate" of fire--about one shot per breath, and a magazine change of a 2nd pre-loaded magazine is required in the timed course of fire too. So I don't think a single-shot rifle will work for Appleseed. Many people have shot "Rifleman" with bolt action, mag-fed rifles though--it's just more challenging than with an auto loader! BTW, both iron sights and scopes are welcome.

So I see no reason that a mag-fed air rifle would not work and be at least as appropriate as a rimfire rifle at Appleseed, even though air guns are not currently "approved" for use. My next concern is the sling. Appleseed requires the use of a sling. Teaching shooters the high effectiveness of sling use (slings greatly improve shooter performance in standing positions, even) is integral to Appleseed. Given the requirements of Appleseed, I think a PCP might be the only reasonable airgun option and that's assuming the organizers approve your use of it. If you ever happen to be near Lewiston, ID, there is a big Appleseed program here and I'd be happy to loan a Ruger 10/22 to you that's perfect too. I do think it would be fun to shoot it with a PCP air rifle though!

Years ago I corresponded with "Fred" (Jack Daley), the Appleseed founder and "Shoot Boss' Boss," about his column in Shot Gun News. Perhaps he will remember me and be willing to help you get engaged with an air rifle at an event near you. Given your credentials, I think he'll understand the value in having your participation to spread the word of Appleseed. I also have a coupon for a day of free attendance that he gave me somewhere. Fortunately, it doesn't have an expiration date either. Regardless of what rifle you shoot, I'd be happy to send it to you, if you choose to participate in the program. I highly recommend signing-up for both days of a weekend Appleseed event initially, but attending a single Sat. or Sun. date can be beneficial after that too (though slightly more expensive on a per-day basis).

I don't know if you're familiar with the work of firearms expert and journalist Massad Ayoob but he has written extensively and favorably about Appleseed in Backwoods Home. In one of his after even reports, he reports that Appleseed is a training bargain and he even learned some things and had to work for his patch! Presumably, that article is somewhere in this search list:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/search-results/?cx=partner-pub-7411545515573536%3A8573169461&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=appleseed+ayoob&sa=Search&siteurl=www.backwoodshome.com%2Fsearch-results%2F%3Fcx%3Dpartner-pub-7411545515573536%253A8573169461%26cof%3DFORID%253A10%26ie%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dappleseed%26sa%3DSearch&ref=&ss=3442j3330516j6

I think you have my email address so please don't hesitate to use it to contact me. (I hope I can find that coupon though, because I'm in the middle of a family move. :( )

Finally, WRT the LGV and LGU, I've been looking at springs, because it's been snowy and rainy. This website kept me from having to set up a spreadsheet:

https://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/comp_spring_k_pop.htm

This webpage might be useful (or already known) to you:

https://shooting-the-breeze.com/threads/titan-spring-size-guide.36682/

And this post from MZE agrees with your report here that the only difference is the length:

https://www.airrifle.co.za/threads/38418-Is-my-LGV-spring-on-its-way-out?p=542995&viewfull=1#post542995

Calin Brabandt

3/25/2018 17:10:03

Hello again, Hector.

I forgot to mention that I think the Titan #3 is perhaps also an option for my LGV. Both the #3 and the #1 springs have 1.11 coils per cm so they both have the same number of coils when cut to the same length. Wire size is also only 0.01mm different (essentially the same). The advantage of the #3 over the #1 is it might fit the OEM tophat and guide well! From the webpage I linked above:

Model Outer (mm) Inner (mm) Thickness (mm) #Coils Length (mm)

No. 1 21 14.5 3.25 31 280
No. 3 20.8 14.73 3.26 34 304
No. 10 21 14.8 3.1 27 230

Jim Maccari also has an LGV spring that's advertised at "33 coils x .125 wire .562 ID." I'd like to know its free length too. Guess I'll have to email Jim. I don't know how well his springs resist continuous set and "sag" with age compared to the Titan springs. It's pretty clear from reading the above linked South African AG forum that the LGV and LGU OEM springs continuously weaken and grow shorter with age--apparently from day 1. Installing up to a couple of 1mm thick preload washers can probably mitigate the problem and extend the OEM spring life, from what I saw there. Apparently the LGV was / is pretty popular in SA--in both the 23J (listed as 21J in some specs) and 16J versions. My own theory is that the 16 J spring, being heat treated at shorter length, is less prone to a set change with age (given the same preload) than the 23J version. The coils of the 16J version are simply under less stress (and thus the steel coils exhibit less stress/distortion/the steel is bent less when compressed by cocking the gun) than the 23J spring.

Best,

-Cal

Hector Medina

2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF
2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
2022 WFTC's Italy
2nd Place Veteran Springers
2023 WFTC's South Africa Member TEAM USA 1st place Springers
2023 WFTC's South Africa
2nd Place Veteran Springers

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