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The Walther LGV.- pushing the power limits

12/25/2017

12 Comments

 
"Hen's teeth" and "Unicorn Horns"  are, usually, expressions referring to items that are rare, precious, or downright non-existent.
As such it is often applied to Spring-Piston powered rifles that deliver above 14 ft-lbs of muzzle energy smoothly, evenly, consistently and reliably.

Our initial tests with the LGV platform were very enticing, but most shooters that ordered them wanted something to shoot FT with, either in the International Division (WFTF Division), or the Hunter Division and that implied toning down the rifles to under 12 ft-lbs.

If you have not done so, I would recommend reading these five previous entries:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-sport-family 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/swapping-the-walther-lgus-trigger 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-yankee-tune-for-the-walther-lgu
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-yankee-tune-for-the-walther-lgu-second-version
​https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-lgv-a-second-look

But not everyone is a Field Target shooter. The world is still populated by a very large number of "general airgunners"; some of them with past experiences in shooting, but that have never shot an airgun.
Some of them are careful individuals that do quite some research before deciding on what to buy and which direction to take once they "leave port".

It was my privilege and pleasure to be contacted by someone well past his 60's that had enjoyed some success as a pistol shooter but that now wanted to try a long gun and, given the current trend in regulations, and ammo prices, decided that shooting pellets in his, rather large, backyard would be more satisfying than embarking on an "F" Class race.

Add to that the fact that he was, and is, a "Connecticut Yankee" and, well, we just hit it off.

We toyed with different ideas, from Dianas to AA's, going through HW's and Wallthers, but once all the chips were down and all the factors had been taken into account, we settled on a Walther LGV in 0.22" cal. that was to be converted into a reliable, accurate and simple to operate plinker. Knowing that it would have to pull Yeoman duty occasionally, to get rid of the squirrels that were digging up the Mrs's garden.

AND the whole project (lock, stock, scope and barrel)  had to fit into an under $1K budget.

The only choice we really had, was to use a Challenger Ultra action, make it as smooth shooting as it could possibly be, and settle on a SIGHTRON S-Tac 3-16x42 scope on solid bases.
By this time, it was clear that the gun would have to be equipped with the Anti-Bounce Piston (ABP).

Careful sourcing of the components and with the support of the manufacturers, we got together all the parts and started the process.

Usually, it takes a tin or two of pellets to get a gun "run in". And this was no exception, but after the initial cleaning and then the very careful initial routine of shooting and cleaning, it was clear that the barrel was a good one. Only then did I put the gun through the chrono.

To my dismay, the gun was putting out less than 10 ft-lbs.

Now, less than 10 ft-lbs may be great in 0.177" and in the hands of a World Class FT shooter that is only looking to drop the FT's at 55 yards. But for a budding airgunner, it would not do. Too much to learn before attempting such feats and, on top, due to ease of handling the pellets themselves, we had chosen the 0.22" cal.

But I had faith in the platform and so we proceeded with several tests to ascertain what would be the best powerplant for the purpose.

We tested springs from Walther, Vortek, Maccari, and Titan, and in the end, the best result was obtained with the Maccari spring coupled with the ABP.
Do note that at this time, ARH does not list anymore this spring.
Picture
From Top:
OEM Spring yielding 10 ft-lbs
Walther "12 ft-lbs" spring that yielded 11 ft-lbs
Maccari FP spring that yielded between 13½ to 15¼ ft-lbs
ABP piston
OEM piston

While at first looks there does not seem to be a radical difference between the OEM piston and the ABP,  because the ABP is built using an OEM piston, the real differences are inside:
Picture
The ABP is a skirted, but "Guideless" piston. The short stub of a "guide" that can be seen only centers the stem into the cocking sleeve in the trigger unit.
Final results were rather satisfying:
Picture
Sorry that I had to obscure the serial number, but customer's wishes are all important.

The black bulls are slightly under ½" across and all groups are groups of 5 shots taken at 35 yards

Particularly interesting is how accurate the Non-Lead H&N FTT Green are from this barrel, there was one shot off the group, but I am almost certain that was me.

Checking other pellets at a much shorter distance, given the weather-imposed limitations, also proved interesting:
Picture
As you can see, the JSB Exact Jumbo are great pellets in this gun, as are the H&N FTT lead ones.

Why the emphasis on non-lead pellets?

Because given the fact that winter is barely starting, my friend will have to start getting familiarized with his gun shooting indoors, and no matter what your age, no one should expose himself needlessly to lead dust.
​
An interesting number in all this is that the peak cocking force is just 36#, so efficiency is quite good.

And so, with somewhat of a heavy heart, I packed one of my best "children"; having graduated into real life she had to go and do her duty in the hands of her new guardian.
Picture
I am sure she will be well cared for.

Keep well and shoot straight!




​HM
12 Comments
Dave Orchard
6/26/2018 19:53:37

This is a very interesting thread.
I have a .177 LGV Challanger that doesn;t seem to shoot v ery accurately beyond 10 meters with any of the 6 or 8 different pellets I have tried in it.
I plink off our porch to 80 yds. with my HW35E .177, shoot a few pests and occassionally something to eat.
Pellet rifles have taken the place of .22rimfire for me and I am not nearly so concerned about riccochets and "pass-thrus".
There are no formal target competitions wiothion reasonable travel distances so any target shooting with other airgunners is an informal & very ocassional thing.
I need aN ACCURATE pelLEt rifle of reasonable power.
ThE HW35E .177 has proved top be the best factory springer for me.
I have hopes that CCA can tune my LGV top where it has enough power to upset the Baracuda Hunter Extreme 9.5 gr. cruciform h.p. out to 50 yds.
In any case power w/o accurascy is meaningless...W/o acccurascy I might as well hunt with a shotgun.

Hopefully CCA can return to me an air rifle that is suited to me and the conditions I shoot and hunt in the inland NW.
Mr.Medina is the only airsmitth I am aware of who is taking the pains to really make the LGVs run up top their potential.

Dave Orchard

Reply
Hector Medina
6/27/2018 12:18:37

Thanks for your nice words, Mr Orchard.
We'll do our very best.

HM

Reply
Walter Enomoto
8/27/2018 11:55:41

Greeting Hector,
I see you mentioned the ABP on a couple of your blog entries. Where can I get this from?
I have both an LGV Ultra and LGU that I've done some minor mods to (Yankee trigger & liners, deburr) but will be looking into drilling out the TP (mine is 2.6mm version). Both are .177 and shooting just a bit over 10fpe. I have Maccari springs on order and hoping to get these up closer to 12-14fpe range.
Thank you for the assistance.
Walter Enomoto

Reply
Hector Medina
8/27/2018 16:35:48

Dear Mr. Enomoto;

At present I am in Germany, visiting with my friends at DIANA.

I will be making a FEW ABP's when I return.

Cost will be $300 for the ABP and the custom short guide it needs, as the ABP is a "guideless" system; I have some on order, so I will build a few more.

Let me know if you are really interested.

Thanks for reading!




HM

Reply
Walter Enomoto
8/28/2018 12:59:48

Thank you for the quick reply. Please pm me after you get safely back to the states to discuss this some more.
Walter Enomoto

Hector Medina
9/2/2018 10:06:43

Dear Mr. Enomoto

These are comments to a blog entry.

There is no way I can get your Email, or any other way of communicating with you.

Please , be so kind as to enter your contact data in our contact page:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/contact-us.html

We will get back to you as soon as we can.

Thanks in advance!


HM

Reply
Gerardo Quiroga
11/26/2019 12:59:26

very interesting

Hector please explain to me, what is the internal differences of the OEM piston to ABP?

Reply
Hector Medina
11/26/2019 14:22:27

Dear Gerardo;

There are about 1½ dozen ABP equipped LGV's in the world, when we discussed this, you decided to get an LGU.
In your LGU we decided to reduce the harmonics at the muzzle.
In the LGV's equipped with ABP, we decided to reduce the harmonics at the SOURCE.

The LGV is a good rifle, that is why I chose it to develop the ABP system, the LGV and the ABP complement each other well.

The ABP is, essentially, a spring-piston-trigger unit that becomes semi-guideless and houses a non-Newtonian fluid inside. This fluid forms a solid at high accelerations, but at V=0 and a=0, it becomes instantly a fluid again.

So, when the spring accelerates the piston, the fluid goes to the back of the piston, when the piston reaches the end of the spring-decompression stage and velocity of the piston is zero because it is trying to re-bound on the pressure of the wall of air that is created between the obstruction of the pellet and the piston reaching the max compression position, the fluid moves forward and opposes the bounce back of the piston, threfore it is an Anti-Bounceback-Piston (ABP).

For a brief time, the pressure in the compression chamber is maintained, allowing the pellet to "absorb" most of the energy stored in the spring, this increases efficiency, reduces harmonics and vibrations, and allows a much smoother pellet launch, thereby reducing deformation upon firing; in some architectures (like the Mauser AM03), the cocking force required for a yield of 12 ft-lbs is barely 22 # peak.

The LGV with its shorter barrel requires a bit more (30# for 12 ft-lbs yield), but it is not far.

It would be ideal if you could put an ABP-LGV into the accelerometers and compare it to the "standard" LGV that you have, you would do the community a great favour by sharing those results.

When you have the time, I would like to continue with the work we started some months ago:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/truly-taming-the-harmonics-in-spring-piston-airguns

Keep well and shoot straight!



HM

Reply
Gerardo Quiroga
11/26/2019 14:47:57

I would like to buy one for the new HW98 cal 22 to do the vibration tests.

please send me more information ... thanks

Dave Orchard
11/26/2019 13:22:03

Hector built me "the ultimate.177 Springer".
In still air the re-built LGV has the accurascy & power to headshoot digger squirrels to 65+ yds.
MY capabilities limit me to 45+ yds. ( On a "good day" ;-)

I mostly shoot an HW35E with iron sights to 20 or 25 yds, mostly at plinking targets, clipping the seed heads off weeds, trimming twigs & exploding snow berries, and occasional rodent invaders.

The LGV is scoped & is my "big gun", & due to Hector's expertise, it demands more from me

Reply
Hector Medina
11/26/2019 14:25:41

Dear Dave;

I am very happy to hear from you!

Shooting squirrels in the head at 45 yards is SOME DARNED GOOD SHOOTING! LOL!

Thanks for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!






HM

Reply
Hector Medina
11/26/2019 18:02:06

@ Gerardo Quiroga

Dear Gerardo;

The HW98 lacks the finesse of the LGV. Not sure it would be fruitful, besides, I am no longer accepting new work.
I MAY re-start after IWA 2020 (April 2020)

But then, I may not.

Thanks for reading!






HM

Reply



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    Hector Medina

    2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
    2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
    2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
    2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
    2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
    2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
    2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
    2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
    2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
    2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
    2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
    2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
    2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
    2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF 
    2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
    2022 WFTC's Italy
    2nd Place Veteran Springers

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