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New "Super Custom" trigger for the Walther LGU/LGV

4/29/2020

9 Comments

 
BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, I am required to post this, the legal disclaimers:

1.- Swapping the trigger blades WILL invalidate the warranty of your rifle.
2.- ANY user intervention in the triggers MAY result in an UNSAFE condition. Once you get into the trigger you are on your own.
3.- I have no control of YOUR actions, so I can take NO responsibility for the results YOU get. This process proved safe and sound in MY gun. I cannot guarantee that it will be the same in YOURS.


Back in May 2018, I wrote a note about the then available "Super Custom" Triggers for the LGU/LGV rifles.
In the original post we discussed European versions, but on this one we will discuss an American design.

For those that have not followed my interest in these fine guns, I would suggest you take the time to read these entries:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-sport-family 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/swapping-the-walther-lgus-trigger 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-yankee-tune-for-the-walther-lguhttps://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-yankee-tune-for-the-walther-lgu-second-version 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-lgv-a-second-look 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-lgv-pushing-the-power-limits 
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-supercustom-triggers-for-the-walther-lgu-and-lgv

As you can see, I am a great fan of the LGV, considering it the best breakbarrel rifle in recent production. We would have to go a few decades into the past to get something better.
These models had been in production for less than 6 years, and in those 6 years, not less than 4 trigger blades came into the market, WHY?
Savvy airgunners have been
 puzzled about how could Walther put such a bad trigger on such a good gun.

And here is where I sometimes ask myself questions that I know would be very "uncomfortable" for a manufacturer to answer, but that definitely point to a marketing strategy that fails to take into account the simple truth that "There are no second 'First Impressions' "

If we analyze the cold facts, they are:
- Rifles are very good rifles, among the breakbarrels, the LGV has no peer. The LGU faces stiff competition from other fixed barrel rifles that are just as good, if not a bit better, depending on the criteria used for judging.
- Price, when they hit the market was high. Granted, ALL airgun prices were high back then; in general, prices have come down as demand has grown, production volumes have gone up, and more brands/models are available.
- Simultaneous to the launch of the rifle itself, Walther launched a "Match Abzug" (MA) that promised a better release but, again, price was high.
- In at least one market, the rifles were ONLY available WITH the MA, at considerably higher price still.
- At some point, up to 6 different "variants" were offered of the LGV. From "De Luxe" models to "Workhorse" models.

To be honest, as a marketing strategy, this is a recipe for trouble.
Those that could ONLY buy the expensive versions thought about it and probably didn't, or if they did would always question their decision.
Those that bought the "economy" versions would not buy the accessory trigger.

Everyone agreed that the guns were between good and great, but still the market response did not justify the costs of production, one by one, the different variants of the LGV were dropped. Unconfirmed information says that Walther has decided to discontinue ALL breakbarrel rifles. Even when the attempt was never made to market the "Century" (a sort of economy LGV with all the good characteristics, but none of the fineries) in the USA
Which is a pity.

And it is what brings us to this entry.


As with many things in this "CoVid-19" world of "stay at home and do something", some people with the skills and the machines in their workshop now have the time to actually do some serious stuff.
In my cybertravels through the airgunning community, I came across an interesting post about "yet another offering for triggers" for the LGU/LGV, and it piqued my curiosity.

And this is how I met Eric. Eric lives in Texas, and he is a great guy. Modest and unassuming, it's a pleasure to deal with him. He is also talented. At first he said he had developed another trigger for the LGV/LGU rifles but that he needed to polish some aspects, a few months later, he comes up with fully finished prototypes. So many corporations would LOVE to have that time of "Start to Finish R&D", LOL!
SOooooo...
Let's get to the trigger:
Picture
As you can see, it uses a quite novel way of making it adjustable without making it expensive. At $80 retail, it is in line with what European triggers cost, and it does provide some advantages.

Among the advantages: there are two possible positions for a second stage, one that provides for a light pull, and another one that provides for an even lighter pull, at the expense of a little "crispness".
In a way this is similar to the Rowan Engineering version, but if we compare them side by side they are not quite the same:
Picture
From left to right: Walther's MA, Eric's trigger, and Rowan Engineering (RE) Trigger.
While the RE trigger allows the user to move the whole trigger blade back, it also ends up needing a "shoe" that is far too wide to operate/work on the trigger. If you want to remove the stock, or adjust the second stage (in the "heavy" position), you need to remove the blade and the holding post.
Eric's trigger does away with that.
Eric's blade is further back, and one of the common complaints about the LGU/LGV stock is that the pistol grip is really big and seems to be made for giant's hands.
Some shooters (even one previous World Champion) hold that huge pistol grips prevent the shooter from inadvertently twisting the gun when releasing the shot, and that is very true, but it is also true that techniques exist to teach ourselves to apply a slowly increasing force that does NOT twist the gun and therefore does not affect the shot. IN any case, the most common versions of the LGU that you see in the competition circuit have ALL had their stocks replaced.
As far as adjusting the distance between pistol grip and trigger blade, Eric's trigger uses a novel approach, and that is a pressure plate that can be moved in/out meaning that it shortens or lengthens that distance.
Eric's trigger is also a bit more swept back, and so the pressure plate could be used as a "Register Mark", ensuring uniform trigger finger placement.
Picture
When comparing the positions of the three screws we see that RE's trigger uses a fairly uniform spacing between screws, whereas Eric's trigger uses a skewed distribution that, while providing for an even "lighter"  trigger pull, will definitely loose some "crispness" to the release.
We also note that RE's trigger has rounded screw faces, while Eric's trigger has pointed faces. This is a result of the market they are oriented at; RE's trigger is sold mostly to fairly amateur airgunners, as a "drop-in", while Eric's trigger assumes that users have ALREADY taken the time to stone and polish all interacting surfaces.

Yes, if you are looking for the LIGHTEST possible trigger pull in an "untreated" trigger block, then RE's trigger will give you that, BUT, if you are looking for a compromise between extreme lightness and total crispness and you are willing to stone and polish your trigger parts, or send them out to a Pro, then Eric's trigger can more easily accomplish this, and with less fuss because you can adjust all aspects of the trigger pull with the trigger blade in the gun, without the trigger guard (more on that later).

To install Eric's trigger is simple; you take apart the gun and when you have the trigger block out and the clamshell disassembled, you take out the old trigger (on the left is the OEM "economy" trigger with the lengthened screw of the "Yankee tune", on the right is Eric's trigger):
Picture
And put in the new one:
Picture
Eric recommends cutting one coil of the extension spring that is the return/no slack spring, but I did not find it necessary.
You will need a crochet hook or some other hook to get that spring out and then in again, so DO REFER the blog entry about "Swapping triggers" above mentioned.

Once you have swapped the triggers, you will need to adjust the screws.

Eric sends a very interesting manual that details STARTING points for the protrusion of those screws and I found the manual absolutely right. SO, DO READ IT!

Once that is done, you can close the gun and start the actual fine tuning.
Picture
It's important to note that once assembled, the gun should be checked that everything is in its place and the clamshell is properly closed and aligned.

Upon some extensive testing, I found that FOR ME, the flat pressure plate gave a "strange" feel, to the point of being distracting, because the pressure plate always keeps the same orientation, when lowered to the last hole, the feeling was that I was pulling in a "crooked" way.
Picture
While this would be ideal for shooters with custom stocks that almost always have a "vertical" pistol grip, it was somewhat off-putting to use with the sporter stock.

So, Eric agreed to make two versions: one with a curved blade, and another with the "flatish" trigger blade

I found also another solution that is truly viable only at very low trigger pulls, and that is replacing the screw with a button headed allen screw that presents a hemispherical shape to the touch of the hand:
Picture
The other thing I like is that I can use a locknut at the rear, to ensure that the setting does not get "out of place".
At trigger pulls above 1# this is somewhat tiring in the long run, but below that it is an eminently usable solution.

If you note, here I have a fully assembled and functional gun without the trigger guard, how is this possible?
Well, Eric designed and will include as part of the kit two plastic "D"s that allow you to get the gun back together to the point where you can actually shoot it, and still have completely open access to the screws for adjustment.
You can see one of the "D"s in the picture above.
​
I tested the trigger in an "untreated" LGU trigger block (my LGV being "on loan" for a lengthy and really serious experiment), mainly to see what difference the 40-60 minutes of stoning and polishing parts would gain a shooter, but also to get a feeling of how narrow the market would be for Eric (difference would be between a few hundred to a few thousand).
And I found out that the lightest trigger pull I could get was an extremely rewarding 1# 2 oz. with great consistency.
Almost anyone should be able to live with that.

In a stoned and polished trigger block, pulls can be lowered to levels that I would not consider safe for 90% of the shooters (just watch Eric's video referenced below), but in the end it is each and every one of us who are responsible for our actions.

Eric has also agreed to send, to those that request it, a "ball end" for the pressure plate, something like this:
Picture
Have not tried it, but it makes a lot of sense.

I was very happy to work with Eric on this project, and since he is still in the pre-production phase, there are some changes that will be inevitable.

BTW, you can see Eric's video here: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvndvLfzug0&feature=youtu.be

If you are interested in finding out more about this trigger, or if you want to buy one, drop Eric a line at:
epianori@gmail.com

Let him know you saw this, please.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!




​HM
9 Comments
Timothy McKorkle
5/4/2020 14:30:52

I absolutely look forward to every article you write about Airguns. I have a brand new ultra competition that has 20 shots fired through it just to get it sighted in. It sits in the closet. Could you install this trigger, and how much would it cost to have trigger and trigger work, polishing etc. done? Also I have one of the 430L's that you had imported for AOA. It is a fantastic shooter. A heavy cocker is it's only downfall. Where could I get a couple breech seals for this gun in case parts become obsolete? Thanks, Tim McKorkle

Reply
Hector Medina
5/5/2020 11:12:38

Thank YOU Tim!

Trigger costs $80 as detailed in the entry.
Installation and trigger work would be $75 more
You need to tell me what trigger weight you want so that I can set the trigger for you.
The HMR breech seal (composite seal made up of two parts: a steel insert and an elastomeric seal) comes in a three piece set of insert and two seals.
Each seal should be good for over 15,000 shots, so you should be set for 30k. Steel insert will last the life of the gun.

Again, thanks for your interest in CCA products!



HM

Reply
RidgeRunner
5/6/2020 12:13:09

Hey Hector,

It is a real shame that Walther dropped the ball on these air rifles. I was really impressed with them, but as you pointed out the trigger needed improving and the price tag was too steep.

There were also a few who thought it should be more powerful, but they would not be happy if it was twice as powerful. "Can't you squeeze a little more out of it?"

It would be nice to see Walther bring out a LGV MKII that had a superb trigger and no glowy thingy sights.

Reply
Hector Medina
5/8/2020 11:45:02

Hello RR!

As stated, the information I have comes from the commercial channels, so it's not "the horse's mouth" but I think there is truth in it.
It MAY be that after a while, Walther will realize what they are dropping and re-initiate the manufacture of breakbarrels, but at present, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that quality breakbarrels of the old style will simply fade away.

Thanks for reading, shoot straight and stay healthy and sane, LOL!





HM

Reply
Derek Sutton
1/31/2021 18:55:44

Thanks for the link to this blog. Not hours earlier today I ordered what I guess is the Walther Match Abzug trigger from Krale (about $51 including shipping from the NL). Nevertheless, I'm going to seriously look into Eric's trigger. Since one of my other guns is a FWB 603, I know how good a trigger can be. I successfully did a Charlie da Tuna trigger on an old GAMO once, so I'm not too afraid of going in there. Guess I'd better learn about stoning and polishing. Too bad I still didn't live on Cape Cod so I could just drop the gun off to you. Glad I found your site and Eric's contact info. Now, if I could only shoot more!!!!

Reply
MckinneyVia link
5/18/2022 08:31:49

Very much appreciated. Thank you for this excellent article. Keep posting!

Reply
Hector Medina
5/22/2022 21:24:27

Thanks for your kind words!
Appreciated.




HM

Reply
Derek Sutton
5/18/2022 09:58:26

I actually did buy one of Eric's new triggers (a curved one), and also had him grind and polish all the sear contact points (he only had the trigger block, not the whole gun). I'm very happy with the results, though to a minor degree I was still a beta tester. Initially, my gun would not cock if the gun was held barrel up, but would cock with the barrel horizontal - it was pretty clear that gravity was involved. Eric adjusts a trigger by measuring the exposed threads to a pre-determined length. In my trigger block as received, it was evident there was slack between two of the levers. We concluded that my gun must have had a slightly shorter back adjusting screw than others he had worked on. Pretty easy fix - just turn the back screw in until the slop was gone. This resolved the cocking issue. I'm not a competitive shooter. There is definite improvement over the plastic original trigger - which wasn't that bad!. I'd say it's neck and neck with a stock HW Rekord trigger, but still not a FWB 603 trigger (which is spooky light). It might still need another adjustment tweak since it may now have a microscopic 3rd stage. It's fascinating to watch the inside workings of a trigger block - it really helps one understand what each adjustment does. Understand that adjusting screws to a specific length could backfire. No regrets, and worth the money!

Reply
Hector Medina
5/22/2022 21:57:42

Glad you are happy with the result.

IMHO, lightness is one of the least important of trigger characteristics.
Crispness being the most important and repeatability being a very close second.
You can learn to shoot accurately a 5# trigger (as in many service rifles classes), but it is almost impossible to learn a trigger that breaks at 1# and then at 20 oz and then at 8 oz.

Eric's triggers achieve the two most important aspects.

AND, if you really like light triggers, the middle position of the second stage screw can really achieve let-off's in the 6-8 oz. region in a consistent manner.

One more thing to be wary about too light triggers is the development of the "Chicken Finger"
Which is when the shooter's brain tricks him into believing he is squeezing, when he really isn't.

;-)

Keep well and shoot straight!





HM

Reply



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    Hector Medina

    2012 US National WFTF Spring Piston Champion
    2012 WFTF Spring Piston Grand Prix Winner
    2013 World's WFTF Spring Piston 7th place
    2014 Texas State WFTF Piston Champion
    2014 World's WFTF Spring Piston 5th place.
    2015 Maine State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 Massachusetts State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 New York State Champion WFTF Piston
    2015 US National WFTF Piston 2nd Place
    2016 Canadian WFTF Piston Champion
    2016 Pyramyd Air Cup WFTF Piston 1st Place
    2017 US Nationals Open Piston 3rd Place
    2018 WFTC's Member of Team USA Champion Springers
    2018 WFTC's 4th place Veteran Springer
    2020 Puerto Rico GP Piston First Place
    2020 NC State Championships 1st Place Piston
    2022 Maryland State Champion WFTF 
    2022 WFTC's Italy Member of TEAM USA 2nd place Springers
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